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TED Talks 2019 + Video, Andrew Marantz / Inside the bizarre world of internet trolls and propagandists

Andrew Marantz / Inside the bizarre world of internet trolls and propagandists

I spent the past three years talking to some of the worst people on the internet. Now, if you've been online recently, you may have noticed that there's a lot of toxic garbage out there: racist memes, misogynist propaganda, viral misinformation. So I wanted to know who was making this stuff. I wanted to understand how they were spreading it. Ultimately, I wanted to know what kind of impact it might be having on our society. So in 2016, I started tracing some of these memes back to their source, back to the people who were making them or who were making them go viral. I'd approach those people and say, "Hey, I'm a journalist. Can I come watch you do what you do? " Now, often the response would be, "Why in hell would I want to talk to some low-t soy-boy Brooklyn globalist Jew cuck who's in cahoots with the Democrat Party? " (Laughter) To which my response would be, "Look, man, that's only 57 percent true. " (Laughter) But often I got the opposite response. "Yeah, sure, come on by. " So that's how I ended up in the living room of a social media propagandist in Southern California. He was a married white guy in his late 30s. He had a table in front of him with a mug of coffee, a laptop for tweeting, a phone for texting and an iPad for livestreaming to Periscope and YouTube. That was it. And yet, with those tools, he was able to propel his fringe, noxious talking points into the heart of the American conversation.

For example, one of the days I was there, a bomb had just exploded in New York, and the guy accused of planting the bomb had a Muslim-sounding name. Now, to the propagandist in California, this seemed like an opportunity, because one of the things he wanted was for the US to cut off almost all immigration, especially from Muslim-majority countries. So he started livestreaming, getting his followers worked up into a frenzy about how the open borders agenda was going to kill us all and asking them to tweet about this, and use specific hashtags, trying to get those hashtags trending. And tweet they did -- hundreds and hundreds of tweets, a lot of them featuring images like this one.

So that's George Soros. He's a Hungarian billionaire and philanthropist, and in the minds of some conspiracists online, George Soros is like a globalist bogeyman, one of a few elites who is secretly manipulating all of global affairs. Now, just to pause here: if this idea sounds familiar to you, that there are a few elites who control the world and a lot of them happen to be rich Jews, that's because it is one of the most anti-Semitic tropes in existence. I should also mention that the guy in New York who planted that bomb, he was an American citizen. So whatever else was going on there, immigration was not the main issue.

And the propagandist in California, he understood all this. He was a well-read guy. He was actually a lawyer. He knew the underlying facts, but he also knew that facts do not drive conversation online. What drives conversation online is emotion.

See, the original premise of social media was that it was going to bring us all together, make the world more open and tolerant and fair ... And it did some of that. But the social media algorithms have never been built to distinguish between what's true or false, what's good or bad for society, what's prosocial and what's antisocial. That's just not what those algorithms do. A lot of what they do is measure engagement: clicks, comments, shares, retweets, that kind of thing. And if you want your content to get engagement, it has to spark emotion, specifically, what behavioral scientists call "high-arousal emotion." Now, "high arousal" doesn't only mean sexual arousal, although it's the internet, obviously that works. It means anything, positive or negative, that gets people's hearts pumping. So I would sit with these propagandists, not just the guy in California, but dozens of them, and I would watch as they did this again and again successfully, not because they were Russian hackers, not because they were tech prodigies, not because they had unique political insights -- just because they understood how social media worked, and they were willing to exploit it to their advantage.

Now, at first I was able to tell myself this was a fringe phenomenon, something that was relegated to the internet. But there's really no separation anymore between the internet and everything else. This is an ad that ran on multiple TV stations during the 2018 congressional elections, alleging with very little evidence that one of the candidates was in the pocket of international manipulator George Soros, who is awkwardly photoshopped here next to stacks of cash. This is a tweet from the President of the United States, alleging, again with no evidence, that American politics is being manipulated by George Soros. This stuff that once seemed so shocking and marginal and, frankly, just ignorable, it's now so normalized that we hardly even notice it. So I spent about three years in this world. I talked to a lot of people. Some of them seemed to have no core beliefs at all. They just seemed to be betting, perfectly rationally, that if they wanted to make some money online or get some attention online, they should just be as outrageous as possible. But I talked to other people who were true ideologues. And to be clear, their ideology was not traditional conservatism. These were people who wanted to revoke female suffrage. These were people who wanted to go back to racial segregation. Some of them wanted to do away with democracy altogether. Now, obviously these people were not born believing these things. They didn't pick them up in elementary school. A lot of them, before they went down some internet rabbit hole, they had been libertarian or they had been socialist or they had been something else entirely. So what was going on?

Well, I can't generalize about every case, but a lot of the people I spoke to, they seem to have a combination of a high IQ and a low EQ. They seem to take comfort in anonymous, online spaces rather than connecting in the real world. So often they would retreat to these message boards or these subreddits, where their worst impulses would be magnified. They might start out saying something just as a sick joke, and then they would get so much positive reinforcement for that joke, so many meaningless "internet points," as they called it, that they might start believing their own joke. I talked a lot with one young woman who grew up in New Jersey, and then after high school, she moved to a new place and suddenly she just felt alienated and cut off and started retreating into her phone. She found some of these spaces on the internet where people would post the most shocking, heinous things. And she found this stuff really off-putting but also kind of engrossing, kind of like she couldn't look away from it. She started interacting with people in these online spaces, and they made her feel smart, they made her feel validated. She started feeling a sense of community, started wondering if maybe some of these shocking memes might actually contain a kernel of truth. A few months later, she was in a car with some of her new internet friends headed to Charlottesville, Virginia, to march with torches in the name of the white race. She'd gone, in a few months, from Obama supporter to fully radicalized white supremacist. Now, in her particular case, she actually was able to find her way out of the cult of white supremacy. But a lot of the people I spoke to were not. And just to be clear: I was never so convinced that I had to find common ground with every single person I spoke to that I was willing to say, "You know what, man, you're a fascist propagandist, I'm not, whatever, let's just hug it out, all our differences will melt away. " No, absolutely not. But I did become convinced that we cannot just look away from this stuff. We have to try to understand it, because only by understanding it can we even start to inoculate ourselves against it.

In my three years in this world, I got a few nasty phone calls, even some threats, but it wasn't a fraction of what female journalists get on this beat. And yeah, I am Jewish, although, weirdly, a lot of the Nazis couldn't tell I was Jewish, which I frankly just found kind of disappointing. (Laughter)

Seriously, like, your whole job is being a professional anti-Semite. Nothing about me is tipping you off at all? Nothing? (Laughter)

This is not a secret. My name is Andrew Marantz, I write for "The New Yorker," my personality type is like if a Seinfeld episode was taped at the Park Slope Food Coop. Nothing? (Laughter)

Anyway, look -- ultimately, it would be nice if there were, like, a simple formula: smartphone plus alienated kid equals 12 percent chance of Nazi. It's obviously not that simple. And in my writing, I'm much more comfortable being descriptive, not prescriptive. But this is TED, so let's get practical. I want to share a few suggestions of things that citizens of the internet like you and I might be able to do to make things a little bit less toxic.

So the first one is to be a smart skeptic. So, I think there are two kinds of skepticism. And I don't want to drown you in technical epistemological information here, but I call them smart and dumb skepticism. So, smart skepticism: thinking for yourself, questioning every claim, demanding evidence -- great, that's real skepticism. Dumb skepticism: it sounds like skepticism, but it's actually closer to knee-jerk contrarianism. Everyone says the earth is round, you say it's flat. Everyone says racism is bad, you say, "I dunno, I'm skeptical about that. " I cannot tell you how many young white men I have spoken to in the last few years who have said, "You know, the media, my teachers, they're all trying to indoctrinate me into believing in male privilege and white privilege, but I don't know about that, man, I don't think so. " Guys -- contrarian white teens of the world -- look: if you are being a round earth skeptic and a male privilege skeptic and a racism is bad skeptic, you're not being a skeptic, you're being a jerk. (Applause)

It's great to be independent-minded, we all should be independent-minded, but just be smart about it. So this next one is about free speech. You will hear smart, accomplished people who will say, "Well, I'm pro-free speech," and they say it in this way that it's like they're settling a debate, when actually, that is the very beginning of any meaningful conversation. All the interesting stuff happens after that point. OK, you're pro-free speech. What does that mean? Does it mean that David Duke and Richard Spencer need to have active Twitter accounts? Does it mean that anyone can harass anyone else online for any reason? You know, I looked through the entire list of TED speakers this year. I didn't find a single round earth skeptic. Is that a violation of free speech norms? Look, we're all pro-free speech, it's wonderful to be pro-free speech, but if that's all you know how to say again and again, you're standing in the way of a more productive conversation. Making decency cool again, so ... Great! (Applause)

Yeah. I don't even need to explain it. So in my research, I would go to Reddit or YouTube or Facebook, and I would search for "sharia law" or I would search for "the Holocaust," and you might be able to guess what the algorithms showed me, right? "Is sharia law sweeping across the United States? " "Did the Holocaust really happen? " Dumb skepticism. So we've ended up in this bizarre dynamic online, where some people see bigoted propaganda as being edgy or being dangerous and cool, and people see basic truth and human decency as pearl-clutching or virtue-signaling or just boring. And the social media algorithms, whether intentionally or not, they have incentivized this, because bigoted propaganda is great for engagement. Everyone clicks on it, everyone comments on it, whether they love it or they hate it. So the number one thing that has to happen here is social networks need to fix their platforms. (Applause)

So if you're listening to my voice and you work at a social media company or you invest in one or, I don't know, own one, this tip is for you. If you have been optimizing for maximum emotional engagement and maximum emotional engagement turns out to be actively harming the world, it's time to optimize for something else. (Applause)

But in addition to putting pressure on them to do that and waiting for them and hoping that they'll do that, there's some stuff that the rest of us can do, too. So, we can create some better pathways or suggest some better pathways for angsty teens to go down. If you see something that you think is really creative and thoughtful and you want to share that thing, you can share that thing, even if it's not flooding you with high arousal emotion. Now that is a very small step, I realize, but in the aggregate, this stuff does matter, because these algorithms, as powerful as they are, they are taking their behavioral cues from us.

So let me leave you with this. You know, a few years ago it was really fashionable to say that the internet was a revolutionary tool that was going to bring us all together. It's now more fashionable to say that the internet is a huge, irredeemable dumpster fire. Neither caricature is really true. We know the internet is just too vast and complex to be all good or all bad. And the danger with these ways of thinking, whether it's the utopian view that the internet will inevitably save us or the dystopian view that it will inevitably destroy us, either way, we're letting ourselves off the hook. There is nothing inevitable about our future. The internet is made of people. People make decisions at social media companies. People make hashtags trend or not trend. People make societies progress or regress. When we internalize that fact, we can stop waiting for some inevitable future to arrive and actually get to work now.

You know, we've all been taught that the arc of the moral universe is long but that it bends toward justice. Maybe. Maybe it will. But that has always been an aspiration. It is not a guarantee. The arc doesn't bend itself. It's not bent inevitably by some mysterious force. The real truth, which is scarier and also more liberating, is that we bend it.

Thank you.

(Applause)

Andrew Marantz / Inside the bizarre world of internet trolls and propagandists أندرو مارانتز / داخل عالم غريب من المتصيدون والدعاة على الإنترنت Andrew Marantz / Einblicke in die bizarre Welt der Internet-Trolle und -Propagandisten Andrew Marantz / Inside the bizarre world of internet trolls and propagandists Andrew Marantz / El extraño mundo de los trolls y propagandistas de Internet Andrew Marantz / Dans le monde étrange des trolls et des propagandistes sur Internet Andrew Marantz / Dentro il bizzarro mondo dei troll e dei propagandisti di internet アンドリュー・マランツ / ネット荒らしとプロパガンダの奇妙な世界の内幕 Andrew Marantz / Į keistą interneto trolių ir propagandistų pasaulį Andrew Marantz / Wewnątrz dziwacznego świata internetowych trolli i propagandystów Andrew Marantz / Por dentro do mundo bizarro dos trolls e propagandistas da internet Эндрю Маранц / Внутри причудливого мира интернет-троллей и пропагандистов Andrew Marantz / İnternet trollerinin ve propagandacılarının tuhaf dünyasının içinde Ендрю Маранц / У дивовижному світі інтернет-тролів і пропагандистів 安德鲁·马兰士 / 走进互联网巨魔和宣传者的奇异世界 安德魯馬蘭士 / 走進網路巨魔和宣傳者的奇異世界

I spent the past three years talking to some of the worst people on the internet. Я провел последние три года, разговаривая с некоторыми из худших людей в Интернете. Now, if you've been online recently, you may have noticed that there's a lot of toxic garbage out there: racist memes, misogynist propaganda, viral misinformation. Ahora bien, si has estado en línea recientemente, te habrás dado cuenta de que hay un montón de basura tóxica por ahí: memes racistas, propaganda misógina, desinformación viral. Agora, se você esteve online recentemente, deve ter notado que há muito lixo tóxico por aí: memes racistas, propaganda misógina, desinformação viral. Теперь, если вы недавно были в сети, вы, возможно, заметили, что там много токсичного мусора: расистские мемы, женоненавистническая пропаганда, вирусная дезинформация. So I wanted to know who was making this stuff. Así que quería saber quién fabricaba estas cosas. I wanted to understand how they were spreading it. I wanted to understand how they were spreading it. Quería entender cómo lo propagaban. Ultimately, I wanted to know what kind of impact it might be having on our society. Ultimately, I wanted to know what kind of impact it might be having on our society. В конечном счете, я хотел знать, какое влияние это может оказать на наше общество. So in 2016, I started tracing some of these memes back to their source, back to the people who were making them or who were making them go viral. Im Jahr 2016 begann ich also, einige dieser Memes bis zu ihrer Quelle zurückzuverfolgen, bis zu den Menschen, die sie gemacht haben oder die dafür gesorgt haben, dass sie viral gehen. Así que en 2016 empecé a rastrear algunos de estos memes hasta su origen, hasta las personas que los creaban o que hacían que se volvieran virales. I'd approach those people and say, "Hey, I'm a journalist. Can I come watch you do what you do? Posso ir ver você fazer o que você faz? " Now, often the response would be, "Why in hell would I want to talk to some low-t soy-boy Brooklyn globalist Jew cuck who's in cahoots with the Democrat Party? " Nun, die Antwort lautet oft: "Warum zum Teufel sollte ich mit einem minderbemittelten, globalistischen, jüdischen Trottel aus Brooklyn reden wollen, der mit der Demokratischen Partei unter einer Decke steckt? "Agora, muitas vezes a resposta seria: "Por que diabos eu iria querer falar com algum garoto de soja globalista do Brooklyn que está em conluio com o Partido Democrata? " Часто в ответ можно услышать: "Какого черта я хочу разговаривать с каким-то низкопробным бруклинским евреем-глобалистом, который состоит в сговоре с демократической партией? Зараз часто відповідь буде такою: «Чого, в біса, я хочу розмовляти з якимось бруклінський глобалістським євреєм-глобалістом-євреєм, який перебуває в змові з Демократичною партією?» "    (Laughter) To which my response would be, "Look, man, that's only 57 percent true. "  (Laughter) But often I got the opposite response. "Yeah, sure, come on by. "Sim, claro, vamos lá. "Да, конечно, заходите. " So that's how I ended up in the living room of a social media propagandist in Southern California. "Então foi assim que acabei na sala de estar de um propagandista de mídia social no sul da Califórnia. " Вот так я и оказался в гостиной пропагандиста социальных сетей в Южной Калифорнии. He was a married white guy in his late 30s. Он был женатым белым парнем в возрасте около 30 лет. He had a table in front of him with a mug of coffee, a laptop for tweeting, a phone for texting and an iPad for livestreaming to Periscope and YouTube. That was it. And yet, with those tools, he was able to propel his fringe, noxious talking points into the heart of the American conversation. Und doch war er mit diesen Mitteln in der Lage, seine schrägen, schädlichen Argumente in den Mittelpunkt der amerikanischen Diskussion zu rücken. E, no entanto, com essas ferramentas, ele foi capaz de impulsionar seus pontos de discussão nocivos e marginais para o coração da conversa americana. И, тем не менее, с помощью этих инструментов он сумел продвинуть свои фривольные, вредные тезисы в центр американского разговора. І все ж за допомогою цих інструментів він зміг просунути свої маргінальні, шкідливі тези для розмови в серце американської розмови.

For example, one of the days I was there, a bomb had just exploded in New York, and the guy accused of planting the bomb had a Muslim-sounding name. Por exemplo, um dos dias em que estive lá, uma bomba acabara de explodir em Nova York, e o cara acusado de plantar a bomba tinha um nome que soava muçulmano. Например, в один из дней, когда я там был, в Нью-Йорке только что взорвалась бомба, и у человека, обвиненного в ее закладке, было мусульманское имя. Now, to the propagandist in California, this seemed like an opportunity, because one of the things he wanted was for the US to cut off almost all immigration, especially from Muslim-majority countries. Agora, para o propagandista na Califórnia, isso parecia uma oportunidade, porque uma das coisas que ele queria era que os EUA cortassem quase toda a imigração, especialmente de países de maioria muçulmana. Пропагандисту из Калифорнии это показалось отличной возможностью, ведь он хотел, чтобы США перекрыли почти всю иммиграцию, особенно из стран с преобладанием мусульманского населения. So he started livestreaming, getting his followers worked up into a frenzy about how the open borders agenda was going to kill us all and asking them to tweet about this, and use specific hashtags, trying to get those hashtags trending. Então ele começou a transmitir ao vivo, deixando seus seguidores em frenesi sobre como a agenda de fronteiras abertas iria matar a todos nós e pedindo-lhes para twittar sobre isso e usar hashtags específicas, tentando fazer com que essas hashtags fossem tendência. Поэтому он начал вести прямую трансляцию, доводя своих подписчиков до исступления тем, что программа открытых границ погубит всех нас, и просил их писать об этом в Твиттере, используя определенные хэштеги, пытаясь добиться того, чтобы эти хэштеги стали трендовыми. And tweet they did -- hundreds and hundreds of tweets, a lot of them featuring images like this one.

So that's George Soros. He's a Hungarian billionaire and philanthropist, and in the minds of some conspiracists online, George Soros is like a globalist bogeyman, one of a few elites who is secretly manipulating all of global affairs. Ele é um bilionário e filantropo húngaro, e na mente de alguns conspiradores online, George Soros é como um bicho-papão globalista, uma das poucas elites que manipula secretamente todos os assuntos globais. Он венгерский миллиардер и филантроп, и в сознании некоторых конспирологов в Интернете Джордж Сорос предстает как гопник-глобалист, один из немногих представителей элиты, тайно манипулирующий всеми мировыми делами. Now, just to pause here: if this idea sounds familiar to you, that there are a few elites who control the world and a lot of them happen to be rich Jews, that's because it is one of the most anti-Semitic tropes in existence. Agora, só para fazer uma pausa aqui: se essa ideia soa familiar para você, que existem algumas elites que controlam o mundo e muitos deles são judeus ricos, é porque é um dos tropos mais anti-semitas que existem. . Если вам знакома идея о том, что есть несколько элит, которые контролируют мир, и многие из них - богатые евреи, то это один из самых антисемитских приемов. I should also mention that the guy in New York who planted that bomb, he was an American citizen. So whatever else was going on there, immigration was not the main issue. Então, o que quer que estivesse acontecendo lá, a imigração não era a questão principal. Поэтому, что бы там ни происходило, иммиграция не была главной проблемой.

And the propagandist in California, he understood all this. He was a well-read guy. Ele era um cara bem lido. He was actually a lawyer. He knew the underlying facts, but he also knew that facts do not drive conversation online. Ele conhecia os fatos subjacentes, mas também sabia que os fatos não conduzem a conversa online. What drives conversation online is emotion. Lo que impulsa la conversación en Internet son las emociones.

See, the original premise of social media was that it was going to bring us all together, make the world more open and tolerant and fair ... And it did some of that. Verás, la premisa original de las redes sociales era que nos iban a unir a todos, que iban a hacer un mundo más abierto, tolerante y justo... Y algo de eso hizo. Veja, a premissa original da mídia social era que ela iria nos unir, tornar o mundo mais aberto, tolerante e justo... E fez um pouco disso. But the social media algorithms have never been built to distinguish between what's true or false, what's good or bad for society, what's prosocial and what's antisocial. That's just not what those algorithms do. Eso no es lo que hacen esos algoritmos. A lot of what they do is measure engagement: clicks, comments, shares, retweets, that kind of thing. В основном они измеряют вовлеченность: клики, комментарии, доли, ретвиты и т.д. And if you want your content to get engagement, it has to spark emotion, specifically, what behavioral scientists call "high-arousal emotion." Und wenn Sie wollen, dass Ihre Inhalte Interesse wecken, müssen sie Emotionen wecken, und zwar das, was Verhaltensforscher "hocherregende Emotionen" nennen. Y si quieres que tu contenido consiga engagement, tiene que despertar emociones, en concreto, lo que los científicos del comportamiento llaman "emoción de alta excitación". E se você deseja que seu conteúdo obtenha engajamento, ele precisa despertar emoção, especificamente, o que os cientistas comportamentais chamam de "emoção de alta excitação". Now, "high arousal" doesn't only mean sexual arousal, although it's the internet, obviously that works. Ahora, "alta excitación" no sólo significa excitación sexual, aunque es internet, obviamente eso funciona. It means anything, positive or negative, that gets people's hearts pumping. Significa qualquer coisa, positiva ou negativa, que faça o coração das pessoas bater forte. So I would sit with these propagandists, not just the guy in California, but dozens of them, and I would watch as they did this again and again successfully, not because they were Russian hackers, not because they were tech prodigies, not because they had unique political insights -- just because they understood how social media worked, and they were willing to exploit it to their advantage. Así que me sentaba con estos propagandistas, no sólo con el tipo de California, sino con docenas de ellos, y observaba cómo lo hacían una y otra vez con éxito, no porque fueran hackers rusos, no porque fueran prodigios de la tecnología, no porque tuvieran una visión política única, simplemente porque entendían cómo funcionaban las redes sociales y estaban dispuestos a explotarlas en su beneficio. Então, eu me sentava com esses propagandistas, não apenas o cara da Califórnia, mas dezenas deles, e observava como eles faziam isso repetidas vezes com sucesso, não porque fossem hackers russos, não porque fossem prodígios da tecnologia, não porque tinham insights políticos únicos - só porque entendiam como a mídia social funcionava e estavam dispostos a explorá-la a seu favor. Так что я сидел с этими пропагандистами, не только с парнем из Калифорнии, но и с десятками других, и наблюдал, как они снова и снова успешно делают это, не потому что они русские хакеры, не потому что они технологические вундеркинды, не потому что они обладают уникальными политическими способностями - просто потому что они понимали, как работают социальные сети, и были готовы использовать их в своих интересах.

Now, at first I was able to tell myself this was a fringe phenomenon, something that was relegated to the internet. Zunächst konnte ich mir einreden, dass es sich um ein Randphänomen handelt, etwas, das nur im Internet zu finden ist. Al principio pude decirme a mí mismo que se trataba de un fenómeno marginal, algo relegado a Internet. 最初は、これはインターネットに追いやられたフリンジ現象だと自分に言い聞かせていた。 Agora, a princípio, consegui dizer a mim mesmo que isso era um fenômeno marginal, algo que foi relegado à internet. Поначалу мне удавалось убеждать себя, что это некий феномен, ушедший в Интернет. But there's really no separation anymore between the internet and everything else. Pero realmente ya no hay separación entre Internet y todo lo demás. Mas realmente não há mais separação entre a internet e todo o resto. Но на самом деле уже нет разделения между Интернетом и всем остальным. This is an ad that ran on multiple TV stations during the 2018 congressional elections, alleging with very little evidence that one of the candidates was in the pocket of international manipulator George Soros, who is awkwardly photoshopped here next to stacks of cash. Este é um anúncio que foi veiculado em várias emissoras de TV durante as eleições parlamentares de 2018, alegando com muito pouca evidência de que um dos candidatos estava no bolso do manipulador internacional George Soros, que é desajeitadamente photoshopado aqui ao lado de pilhas de dinheiro. Это реклама, которая была показана на нескольких телеканалах во время выборов в Конгресс в 2018 г. и в которой без особых доказательств утверждалось, что один из кандидатов находится в кармане международного манипулятора Джорджа Сороса, который неловко отфотошоплен здесь рядом с пачками денег. This is a tweet from the President of the United States, alleging, again with no evidence, that American politics is being manipulated by George Soros. This stuff that once seemed so shocking and marginal and, frankly, just ignorable, it's now so normalized that we hardly even notice it. Estas cosas que antes parecían tan chocantes y marginales y, francamente, simplemente ignorables, ahora están tan normalizadas que apenas nos damos cuenta. Essas coisas que antes pareciam tão chocantes e marginais e, francamente, apenas ignoráveis, agora estão tão normalizadas que mal percebemos. То, что раньше казалось шокирующим, маргинальным и, откровенно говоря, просто не заслуживающим внимания, теперь настолько нормализовалось, что мы даже почти не замечаем этого. So I spent about three years in this world. I talked to a lot of people. Some of them seemed to have no core beliefs at all. Einige von ihnen schienen überhaupt keine Grundüberzeugungen zu haben. Alguns deles pareciam não ter nenhuma crença central. Некоторые из них, похоже, вообще не имели никаких основных убеждений. They just seemed to be betting, perfectly rationally, that if they wanted to make some money online or get some attention online, they should just be as outrageous as possible. Eles apenas pareciam estar apostando, perfeitamente racionalmente, que se quisessem ganhar algum dinheiro online ou chamar atenção online, deveriam ser o mais ultrajantes possível. Казалось, что они совершенно рационально решили, что если они хотят заработать в Интернете или привлечь к себе внимание, то они должны быть как можно более возмутительными. But I talked to other people who were true ideologues. And to be clear, their ideology was not traditional conservatism. E para ser claro, a ideologia deles não era o conservadorismo tradicional. These were people who wanted to revoke female suffrage. Eram pessoas que queriam revogar o sufrágio feminino. Это были люди, которые хотели отменить избирательное право для женщин. These were people who wanted to go back to racial segregation. Some of them wanted to do away with democracy altogether. Alguns deles queriam acabar com a democracia por completo. Некоторые из них хотели вообще отказаться от демократии. Now, obviously these people were not born believing these things. Agora, obviamente, essas pessoas não nasceram acreditando nessas coisas. They didn't pick them up in elementary school. Eles não os pegaram na escola primária. A lot of them, before they went down some internet rabbit hole, they had been libertarian or they had been socialist or they had been something else entirely. Muchos de ellos, antes de meterse en algún agujero de conejo de Internet, habían sido libertarios o socialistas o algo totalmente distinto. Muitos deles, antes de entrarem em algum buraco de coelho da internet, eram libertários ou socialistas ou algo completamente diferente. Многие из них, до того как спуститься в какую-то кроличью нору в Интернете, были либертарианцами, социалистами или кем-то еще. So what was going on?

Well, I can't generalize about every case, but a lot of the people I spoke to, they seem to have a combination of a high IQ and a low EQ. Nun, ich kann nicht jeden Fall verallgemeinern, aber viele der Menschen, mit denen ich gesprochen habe, scheinen eine Kombination aus einem hohen IQ und einem niedrigen EQ zu haben. They seem to take comfort in anonymous, online spaces rather than connecting in the real world. Eles parecem se sentir confortáveis em espaços online anônimos em vez de se conectarem no mundo real. So often they would retreat to these message boards or these subreddits, where their worst impulses would be magnified. So zogen sie sich oft in diese Messageboards oder Subreddits zurück, wo ihre schlimmsten Impulse noch verstärkt wurden. Así que a menudo se retiraban a estos tablones de mensajes o a estos subreddits, donde se magnificaban sus peores impulsos. Muitas vezes eles se retiravam para esses quadros de mensagens ou esses subreddits, onde seus piores impulsos seriam ampliados. Поэтому часто они уединялись на этих досках объявлений или в этих сабреддитах, где их худшие побуждения усиливались. They might start out saying something just as a sick joke, and then they would get so much positive reinforcement for that joke, so many meaningless "internet points," as they called it, that they might start believing their own joke. Podían empezar diciendo algo sólo como una broma de mal gusto, y luego recibían tanto refuerzo positivo por esa broma, tantos "puntos de Internet" sin sentido, como ellos lo llamaban, que podían empezar a creerse su propia broma. Eles podem começar dizendo algo apenas como uma piada de mau gosto, e então eles receberiam tanto reforço positivo para aquela piada, tantos "pontos de internet" sem sentido, como eles chamavam, que eles poderiam começar a acreditar em sua própria piada. Они могут начать говорить что-то просто как больную шутку, а потом получить столько положительного подкрепления за эту шутку, столько бессмысленных "интернет-очков", как они это называют, что они могут начать верить в свою шутку. I talked a lot with one young woman who grew up in New Jersey, and then after high school, she moved to a new place and suddenly she just felt alienated and cut off and started retreating into her phone. Conversei muito com uma jovem que cresceu em Nova Jersey e, depois do ensino médio, ela se mudou para um novo lugar e, de repente, se sentiu alienada e cortada e começou a se retirar para o telefone. She found some of these spaces on the internet where people would post the most shocking, heinous things. Она нашла в Интернете несколько таких мест, где люди выкладывали самые шокирующие, отвратительные вещи. And she found this stuff really off-putting but also kind of engrossing, kind of like she couldn't look away from it. E ela achou essas coisas realmente desanimadoras, mas também meio cativantes, como se ela não pudesse desviar o olhar. Она находила этот материал очень неприятным и в то же время увлекательным, от него невозможно было оторваться. She started interacting with people in these online spaces, and they made her feel smart, they made her feel validated. Ela começou a interagir com as pessoas nesses espaços online, e eles a fizeram se sentir inteligente, fizeram com que ela se sentisse validada. She started feeling a sense of community, started wondering if maybe some of these shocking memes might actually contain a kernel of truth. Sie fing an, ein Gemeinschaftsgefühl zu spüren, und fragte sich, ob einige dieser schockierenden Memes nicht vielleicht doch einen Funken Wahrheit enthalten könnten. Она начала ощущать чувство общности, начала задумываться о том, что, возможно, в некоторых из этих шокирующих мемов действительно есть доля правды. A few months later, she was in a car with some of her new internet friends headed to Charlottesville, Virginia, to march with torches in the name of the white race. Unos meses después, se encontraba en un coche con algunos de sus nuevos amigos de Internet rumbo a Charlottesville, Virginia, para marchar con antorchas en nombre de la raza blanca. Alguns meses depois, ela estava em um carro com alguns de seus novos amigos da internet indo para Charlottesville, Virgínia, para marchar com tochas em nome da raça branca. Несколько месяцев спустя она вместе со своими новыми интернет-друзьями отправилась в Шарлотсвилл (штат Вирджиния), чтобы провести шествие с факелами во имя белой расы. She'd gone, in a few months, from Obama supporter to fully radicalized white supremacist. Ela passou, em poucos meses, de apoiadora de Obama a supremacista branca totalmente radicalizada. За несколько месяцев она прошла путь от сторонницы Обамы до полностью радикализированной белой супрематистки. Now, in her particular case, she actually was able to find her way out of the cult of white supremacy. Agora, em seu caso particular, ela realmente conseguiu sair do culto da supremacia branca. But a lot of the people I spoke to were not. And just to be clear: I was never so convinced that I had to find common ground with every single person I spoke to that I was willing to say, "You know what, man, you're a fascist propagandist, I'm not, whatever, let's just hug it out, all our differences will melt away. Und nur um das klarzustellen: Ich war nie so überzeugt, dass ich mit jedem einzelnen Gesprächspartner eine gemeinsame Basis finden musste, dass ich bereit war zu sagen: "Weißt du was, Mann, du bist ein faschistischer Propagandist, ich nicht, was auch immer, lass uns das einfach umarmen, dann werden alle unsere Differenzen verschwinden. E só para deixar claro: eu nunca estive tão convencido de que tinha que encontrar um terreno comum com cada pessoa com quem falei que estava disposto a dizer: "Sabe de uma coisa, cara, você é um propagandista fascista, não sou , seja o que for, vamos apenas abraçá-lo, todas as nossas diferenças vão derreter. И для ясности: я никогда не был настолько убежден, что должен находить общий язык с каждым собеседником, что готов был сказать: "Знаешь что, чувак, ты фашистский пропагандист, я - нет, какая разница, давай просто обнимемся, и все наши разногласия растают". " No, absolutely not. But I did become convinced that we cannot just look away from this stuff. Но я убедился, что мы не можем просто отмахнуться от этих вещей. We have to try to understand it, because only by understanding it can we even start to inoculate ourselves against it. Мы должны попытаться понять это, потому что, только поняв это, мы можем хотя бы начать прививать себя от этого.

In my three years in this world, I got a few nasty phone calls, even some threats, but it wasn't a fraction of what female journalists get on this beat. En mis tres años en este mundo, recibí unas cuantas llamadas desagradables, incluso algunas amenazas, pero no era ni una fracción de lo que reciben las periodistas en esta profesión. За три года работы в этом мире я получила несколько неприятных телефонных звонков, даже угрозы, но это не было и малой долей того, что получают журналистки, работающие в этой сфере. And yeah, I am Jewish, although, weirdly, a lot of the Nazis couldn't tell I was Jewish, which I frankly just found kind of disappointing. Und ja, ich bin Jude, obwohl viele der Nazis seltsamerweise nicht erkennen konnten, dass ich Jude bin, was ich ehrlich gesagt etwas enttäuschend fand. Y sí, soy judío, aunque, extrañamente, muchos de los nazis no sabían que lo era, lo que francamente me pareció decepcionante. И да, я еврей, хотя, как ни странно, многие нацисты не могли сказать, что я еврей, что меня, честно говоря, просто разочаровывало. (Laughter)

Seriously, like, your whole job is being a professional anti-Semite. Серьезно, как будто вся твоя работа заключается в том, чтобы быть профессиональным антисемитом. Nothing about me is tipping you off at all? Nichts an mir gibt Ihnen einen Hinweis? Nada sobre mim está te alertando? Ничего во мне тебя не настораживает? Нічого про мене вас не натякає? Nothing? (Laughter)

This is not a secret. Это не секрет. My name is Andrew Marantz, I write for "The New Yorker," my personality type is like if a Seinfeld episode was taped at the Park Slope Food Coop. Меня зовут Эндрю Маранц, я пишу для "The New Yorker", мой тип личности - как если бы серия "Сайнфелда" была записана в Park Slope Food Coop. Nothing? (Laughter)

Anyway, look -- ultimately, it would be nice if there were, like, a simple formula: smartphone plus alienated kid equals 12 percent chance of Nazi. De qualquer forma, olhe - no final das contas, seria bom se houvesse, tipo, uma fórmula simples: smartphone mais criança alienada equivale a 12% de chance de nazista. В общем, смотрите... В конце концов, было бы неплохо, если бы существовала простая формула: смартфон плюс отчужденный ребенок - 12 процентов вероятности нацизма. It's obviously not that simple. And in my writing, I'm much more comfortable being descriptive, not prescriptive. И в своей писательской деятельности мне гораздо удобнее быть описательным, а не предписывающим. But this is TED, so let's get practical. I want to share a few suggestions of things that citizens of the internet like you and I might be able to do to make things a little bit less toxic.

So the first one is to be a smart skeptic. So, I think there are two kinds of skepticism. And I don't want to drown you in technical epistemological information here, but I call them smart and dumb skepticism. E eu não quero te afogar em informações epistemológicas técnicas aqui, mas eu as chamo de ceticismo inteligente e burro. So, smart skepticism: thinking for yourself, questioning every claim, demanding evidence -- great, that's real skepticism. Kluger Skeptizismus bedeutet also, selbst zu denken, jede Behauptung zu hinterfragen und Beweise einzufordern - großartig, das ist echter Skeptizismus. Então, ceticismo inteligente: pensando por si mesmo, questionando todas as alegações, exigindo evidências – ótimo, isso é ceticismo real. Итак, умный скептицизм: думать самостоятельно, подвергать сомнению каждое утверждение, требовать доказательств - отлично, это и есть настоящий скептицизм. Dumb skepticism: it sounds like skepticism, but it's actually closer to knee-jerk contrarianism. Dummer Skeptizismus: Klingt wie Skeptizismus, ist aber eigentlich eher eine reflexartige Gegenhaltung. Ceticismo mudo: soa como ceticismo, mas na verdade está mais próximo do contrarianismo instintivo. Тупой скептицизм: звучит как скептицизм, но на самом деле это больше похоже на скептицизм. Everyone says the earth is round, you say it's flat. Todo mundo diz que a terra é redonda, você diz que é plana. Все говорят, что Земля круглая, а вы говорите, что она плоская. Everyone says racism is bad, you say, "I dunno, I'm skeptical about that. " I cannot tell you how many young white men I have spoken to in the last few years who have said, "You know, the media, my teachers, they're all trying to indoctrinate me into believing in male privilege and white privilege, but I don't know about that, man, I don't think so. " Я не могу передать словами, со сколькими молодыми белыми мужчинами я разговаривал за последние несколько лет, которые говорили: "Знаете, СМИ, мои учителя - все они пытаются внушить мне веру в привилегии мужчин и привилегии белых, но я не знаю об этом, я так не думаю. " Guys -- contrarian white teens of the world -- look: if you are being a round earth skeptic and a male privilege skeptic and a racism is bad skeptic, you're not being a skeptic, you're being a jerk. "Pessoal - adolescentes brancos contrários do mundo - vejam: se você está sendo um cético da terra redonda e um cético dos privilégios masculinos e um racismo é um cético ruim, você não está sendo um cético, você está sendo um idiota. " Парни - белые подростки с противоположным мнением - смотрите: если вы скептик круглой Земли, скептик мужских привилегий и скептик расизма - это плохо, то вы не скептик, а придурок. «Хлопці, протилежні білі підлітки світу, подивіться: якщо ви скептик із круглої землі та скептик щодо чоловічих привілеїв, а расизм — поганий скептик, ви не скептик, ви — придурок. (Applause)

It's great to be independent-minded, we all should be independent-minded, but just be smart about it. É ótimo ter uma mente independente, todos nós devemos ter uma mente independente, mas apenas seja inteligente sobre isso. So this next one is about free speech. Então este próximo é sobre liberdade de expressão. You will hear smart, accomplished people who will say, "Well, I'm pro-free speech," and they say it in this way that it's like they're settling a debate, when actually, that is the very beginning of any meaningful conversation. Você ouvirá pessoas inteligentes e talentosas que dirão: "Bem, eu sou a favor da liberdade de expressão", e eles dizem isso dessa maneira que é como se estivessem resolvendo um debate, quando na verdade esse é o começo de qualquer conversa significativa. Вы услышите умных, состоявшихся людей, которые скажут: "Ну, я за свободу слова", и скажут это так, как будто они разрешают спор, хотя на самом деле это самое начало любого содержательного разговора. All the interesting stuff happens after that point. OK, you're pro-free speech. What does that mean? Что это означает? Does it mean that David Duke and Richard Spencer need to have active Twitter accounts? Isso significa que David Duke e Richard Spencer precisam ter contas ativas no Twitter? Означает ли это, что Дэвид Дюк и Ричард Спенсер должны иметь активные аккаунты в Twitter? Does it mean that anyone can harass anyone else online for any reason? Isso significa que qualquer pessoa pode assediar outra pessoa online por qualquer motivo? Означает ли это, что любой человек может преследовать другого в Интернете по любому поводу? You know, I looked through the entire list of TED speakers this year. Знаете, я просмотрел весь список докладчиков TED в этом году. I didn't find a single round earth skeptic. No he encontrado ni un solo escéptico de la tierra redonda. Я не нашел ни одного скептика круглой Земли. Is that a violation of free speech norms? Look, we're all pro-free speech, it's wonderful to be pro-free speech, but if that's all you know how to say again and again, you're standing in the way of a more productive conversation. Mira, todos estamos a favor de la libertad de expresión, es maravilloso estar a favor de la libertad de expresión, pero si eso es todo lo que sabes decir una y otra vez, estás obstaculizando una conversación más productiva. Olha, somos todos pró-liberdade de expressão, é maravilhoso ser pró-liberdade de expressão, mas se isso é tudo que você sabe dizer de novo e de novo, você está atrapalhando uma conversa mais produtiva. Making decency cool again, so ... Great! Приличия снова становятся крутыми, так что... Отлично! (Applause)

Yeah. I don't even need to explain it. So in my research, I would go to Reddit or YouTube or Facebook, and I would search for "sharia law" or I would search for "the Holocaust," and you might be able to guess what the algorithms showed me, right? Então, na minha pesquisa, eu ia ao Reddit, YouTube ou Facebook, e procurava por "lei da sharia" ou por "Holocausto", e você poderia adivinhar o que os algoritmos me mostravam, certo? Поэтому в своих исследованиях я заходил на Reddit, YouTube или Facebook, набирал в поисковике "законы шариата" или "Холокост", и вы, наверное, догадываетесь, что мне показывали алгоритмы, верно? "Is sharia law sweeping across the United States? "A lei da sharia está varrendo os Estados Unidos? "Распространяются ли законы шариата на США? " "Did the Holocaust really happen? " Dumb skepticism. So we've ended up in this bizarre dynamic online, where some people see bigoted propaganda as being edgy or being dangerous and cool, and people see basic truth and human decency as pearl-clutching or virtue-signaling or just boring. So sind wir in dieser bizarren Online-Dynamik gelandet, in der einige Leute bigotte Propaganda als ausgefallen oder gefährlich und cool ansehen, während andere die grundlegende Wahrheit und den menschlichen Anstand als Perlenschnur oder Tugendhaftigkeit oder einfach als langweilig ansehen. Así que hemos terminado en esta extraña dinámica en línea, donde algunas personas ven la propaganda intolerante como algo vanguardista o peligroso y guay, y la gente ve la verdad básica y la decencia humana como una forma de hacer perlas o de señalar la virtud o simplemente aburrido. Então, acabamos nessa bizarra dinâmica online, onde algumas pessoas veem a propaganda preconceituosa como sendo ousada ou perigosa e legal, e as pessoas veem a verdade básica e a decência humana como pérolas ou sinais de virtude ou apenas chatas. Таким образом, мы оказались в этой странной динамике в Интернете, где некоторые люди считают фанатичную пропаганду модной, опасной и крутой, а люди считают элементарную правду и человеческую порядочность жемчужным скрежетом, добродетельным сигналом или просто скукой. And the social media algorithms, whether intentionally or not, they have incentivized this, because bigoted propaganda is great for engagement. И алгоритмы социальных сетей, намеренно или нет, стимулируют это, поскольку фанатичная пропаганда отлично подходит для вовлечения. Everyone clicks on it, everyone comments on it, whether they love it or they hate it. So the number one thing that has to happen here is social networks need to fix their platforms. Así que lo primero que tiene que ocurrir aquí es que las redes sociales tienen que arreglar sus plataformas. Поэтому первое, что здесь должно произойти, - социальные сети должны исправить свои платформы. (Applause)

So if you're listening to my voice and you work at a social media company or you invest in one or, I don't know, own one, this tip is for you. Так что если вы слушаете мой голос и работаете в компании социальных сетей, инвестируете в нее или, не знаю, владеете ею, этот совет для вас. If you have been optimizing for maximum emotional engagement and maximum emotional engagement turns out to be actively harming the world, it's time to optimize for something else. Wenn Sie auf maximales emotionales Engagement optimiert haben und sich herausstellt, dass maximales emotionales Engagement der Welt aktiv schadet, ist es an der Zeit, auf etwas anderes zu optimieren. Se você está otimizando para o máximo envolvimento emocional e o máximo envolvimento emocional acaba prejudicando ativamente o mundo, é hora de otimizar para outra coisa. Если вы оптимизировали свою работу на максимальную эмоциональную вовлеченность, а максимальная эмоциональная вовлеченность, как оказалось, активно вредит миру, значит, пора оптимизировать работу на что-то другое. Якщо ви проводили оптимізацію для максимального емоційного залучення, а максимальне емоційне залучення виявляється активно шкодить світу, настав час оптимізувати для чогось іншого. (Applause)

But in addition to putting pressure on them to do that and waiting for them and hoping that they'll do that, there's some stuff that the rest of us can do, too. Mas além de pressioná-los a fazer isso e esperar por eles e torcer para que eles façam isso, há algumas coisas que o resto de nós também pode fazer. Но помимо давления на них, ожидания и надежды на то, что они это сделают, есть и то, что можем сделать мы сами. So, we can create some better pathways or suggest some better pathways for angsty teens to go down. Assim, podemos criar alguns caminhos melhores ou sugerir alguns caminhos melhores para adolescentes angustiados seguirem. Таким образом, мы можем создать лучшие пути или предложить лучшие пути, по которым могут пойти озабоченные подростки. If you see something that you think is really creative and thoughtful and you want to share that thing, you can share that thing, even if it's not flooding you with high arousal emotion. Se você vê algo que você acha que é realmente criativo e atencioso e você quer compartilhar essa coisa, você pode compartilhar essa coisa, mesmo que não esteja inundando você com uma emoção de alta excitação. Если вы видите что-то, что кажется вам действительно креативным и продуманным, и хотите поделиться этим, вы можете поделиться этим, даже если это не вызывает у вас сильных эмоций. Now that is a very small step, I realize, but in the aggregate, this stuff does matter, because these algorithms, as powerful as they are, they are taking their behavioral cues from us. Nun, das ist ein sehr kleiner Schritt, ist mir klar, aber insgesamt ist dieses Zeug von Bedeutung, weil diese Algorithmen, so mächtig sie auch sind, ihre Verhaltenshinweise von uns nehmen. Agora, esse é um passo muito pequeno, eu percebo, mas no conjunto, essas coisas importam, porque esses algoritmos, por mais poderosos que sejam, estão pegando suas dicas comportamentais de nós.

So let me leave you with this. Так что позвольте мне оставить вас с этим. You know, a few years ago it was really fashionable to say that the internet was a revolutionary tool that was going to bring us all together. It's now more fashionable to say that the internet is a huge, irredeemable dumpster fire. Agora está mais na moda dizer que a internet é um enorme e irremediável incêndio de lixeiras. Сейчас модно говорить, что Интернет - это огромная, неисправимая помойка. Neither caricature is really true. Nenhuma das caricaturas é realmente verdadeira. Ни та, ни другая карикатура не соответствует действительности. We know the internet is just too vast and complex to be all good or all bad. Sabemos que a internet é muito vasta e complexa para ser boa ou ruim. Мы знаем, что Интернет слишком обширен и сложен, чтобы в нем можно было найти все хорошее или все плохое. And the danger with these ways of thinking, whether it's the utopian view that the internet will inevitably save us or the dystopian view that it will inevitably destroy us, either way, we're letting ourselves off the hook. E o perigo com essas formas de pensar, seja a visão utópica de que a internet inevitavelmente nos salvará ou a visão distópica de que ela inevitavelmente nos destruirá, de qualquer forma, estamos nos livrando do gancho. И опасность такого мышления, будь то утопическое представление о том, что Интернет нас неизбежно спасет, или антиутопическое, что он нас неизбежно погубит, в любом случае заключается в том, что мы сами сбрасываем себя со счетов. There is nothing inevitable about our future. The internet is made of people. People make decisions at social media companies. People make hashtags trend or not trend. People make societies progress or regress. Las sociedades progresan o retroceden. When we internalize that fact, we can stop waiting for some inevitable future to arrive and actually get to work now. Cuando interiorizamos este hecho, podemos dejar de esperar a que llegue un futuro inevitable y ponernos a trabajar ahora. Quando internalizamos esse fato, podemos parar de esperar que algum futuro inevitável chegue e realmente começar a trabalhar agora. Когда мы осознаем этот факт, мы можем перестать ждать наступления какого-то неизбежного будущего и начать работать уже сейчас.

You know, we've all been taught that the arc of the moral universe is long but that it bends toward justice. You know, we've all been taught that the arc of the moral universe is long but that it bends toward justice. Você sabe, todos nós fomos ensinados que o arco do universo moral é longo, mas que se inclina para a justiça. Нас всех учили, что дуга нравственного мироздания длинна, но она изгибается в сторону справедливости. Maybe. Maybe it will. Puede que sí. But that has always been an aspiration. Aber das war schon immer ein Anspruch. But that has always been an aspiration. Pero siempre ha sido una aspiración. Но это всегда было стремлением. It is not a guarantee. No es una garantía. The arc doesn't bend itself. Der Bogen krümmt sich nicht von selbst. El arco no se dobla solo. O arco não se dobra. Дуга не гнется сама по себе. It's not bent inevitably by some mysterious force. No se dobla inevitablemente por una fuerza misteriosa. Não é dobrado inevitavelmente por alguma força misteriosa. Она не изгибается неизбежно под действием какой-то таинственной силы. The real truth, which is scarier and also more liberating, is that we bend it. La auténtica verdad, que es más aterradora y también más liberadora, es que la doblamos. A verdade real, que é mais assustadora e também mais libertadora, é que a dobramos. Настоящая правда, более страшная и одновременно более освобождающая, заключается в том, что мы ее гнем.

Thank you.

(Applause)