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PBS NewsHour (Nov to Dec 2017), Dec 27, 2017 - 2017 was a year of scrutiny for social media and other tech

Dec 27, 2017 - 2017 was a year of scrutiny for social media and other tech

Hari Sreenivasan:

Technology has traditionally been seen by the public and many in the media in a more hopeful light.

But 2017 felt different, a year that frequently cast technology, and its unintended consequences, in a much harsher light.

In a moment, we will have a conversation that I recorded last week in New York, but, first, a quick reminder about some of the major problems this year.

Russia used Facebook and social media to try and influence the 2016 elections. The revelations reverberated throughout the nation's capital this year. As congressional committees detailed, Russian operatives bought ads that sought to capitalize on racial, religious and political divisions in the U.S. Just 120 fake accounts posted on Facebook 80,000 times and reached as many as 126 million Americans.

Facebook's CEO, Mark Zuckerberg, initially doubted that the platform could have influenced the election, but later pledged to make political advertising more transparent. Mark Zuckerberg:

Not only will you have to disclose which page paid for an ad, but we will also make it so you can visit an advertiser's page and see the ads that they're currently running to any audience on Facebook. Hari Sreenivasan:

Members of both parties were angry at the company's slow admission, but the focus grew beyond just one company to other tech giants, since Russian agents used Twitter, Google and YouTube too. The Senate Intelligence Committee grilled top lawyers for the companies. Sen. Mark Warner:

Many of us on this committee have been raising this issue since the beginning of this year. And our claims were, frankly, blown off by the leaderships of your companies, dismissed, so there's no possibility nothing like this happening, nothing to see here. Hari Sreenivasan:

Hacking, a perennial problem, took on new urgency this past year.

The ransomware cyber-attack called WannaCry temporarily crippled computer systems in hospitals, banks and companies around the world. More than 230,000 computers in 150 countries were affected. Just a week ago, the Trump administration named the country it says was responsible. Tom Bossert:

After careful investigation, the United States is publicly attributing the massive WannaCry cyber-attack to North Korea. We do not make this allegation lightly. We do so with evidence, and we do so with partners. Hari Sreenivasan:

Hackers also tore into Equifax, one of the largest credit bureaus, stealing the personal information of more than 145 million people. They got Social Security numbers, birth dates, addresses and driver's licenses. The tech industry faced a new conversation on inequality by race and gender.

Susan Fowler, a former engineer at Uber, published a damning account of a harassment-filled workplace culture. Uber fired 20 employees and it eventually helped lead to the CEO's resignation. She told “TIME” she was amazed by the reaction to her essay. Susan Fowler:

I expected it would be like a 24-hour, like, viral thing, but it didn't slow down at all. And I was reading through all of these things. And I thought like, oh, my gosh, like, I'm not alone. Hari Sreenivasan:

Others, like Ellen Pao, who filed and lost a gender discrimination case against a powerful venture capital firm, said change was needed. Ellen Pao:

Well, I think if playing along means participating in sexist and racist jokes, that expectation has to change. Hari Sreenivasan:

The year ended with a divisive decision by the FCC that many fear will lead to the end of net neutrality, the idea of treating all content on the Web equally without charging more or blocking your ability to see other content.

For a closer look at the potential turning point that 2017 is shaping up to be for the most well-known tech giants, I'm joined by two people who follow that world closely. Farhad Manjoo is a New York Times columnist who writes on how technology is changing society and business. And David Kirkpatrick is the founder of Techonomy. He's a technology journalist and author of “The Facebook Effect.” Thank you both for joining us.

So, Farhad, let me start with you.

How did tech shift in our perception this year? Farhad Manjoo:

Yes, I think we got, justifiably, a lot less optimistic about tech, and a lot more worried about the implications of a few big tech companies kind of taking over much of the world, much of our communications, much of how we kind of learn and experience the world, all of our personal information.

And I think the tech companies responded to that. They started to notice. I mean, after the questions about the Russia hack, after questions about sexual harassment, they started to respond to these criticisms.

And I think the key change they made was a lot of these — a lot of the big tech companies started, at first grudgingly and then more willingly, I think, they started to accept that they have some responsibility to the rest of the world, that their technologies aren't necessarily kind of neutral platforms, and that they have some responsibility to kind of police what happens there. How that plays out, I think, will be the big question of 2018. But this year, I think that the big change is that, in the past, technology companies sort of thought of themselves as kind of neutral. And I think that started to change. They are less neutral now. Hari Sreenivasan:

But, David Kirkpatrick, what happened to make Silicon Valley less the sort of darling of, well, Washington, D.C., as well as Wall Street? David Kirkpatrick:

Well, if there is one single thing that changed the situation, I would say it's Russian fake news affecting the election, in the opinion of — and the desire of Russia to alter our electoral process, and using Facebook and Google, but Facebook in particular, as a key means of doing that. And I think what that concern at a national level did was draw attention to the extraordinary social, cultural and informational weight of these companies, and then caused a lot of people to start asking bigger questions about what it meant that these very small number of tech giants have had such a monumental impact on our social dialogue and have, in effect, become the central platform for social dialogue, and increasingly in many ways for political behavior as well. Hari Sreenivasan:

Mark Zuckerberg famously said it is a crazy idea that they would have had any impact on the U.S. elections.

And then, since then, he's made several statements that walked that back. David Kirkpatrick:

Right.

He said that to me on my Techonomy stage in 2016 two days after the election, in which, by the way, I also asked him if Facebook had special responsibilities because of its scale. And he essentially demurred on that.

So, again, while I agree with what Farhad said, it is really notable how much he has changed since then. Farhad Manjoo:

I think David is right.

Mark Zuckerberg has changed in a way that I have been surprised by. When he started Facebook, the main sort of idea behind Facebook was that he wanted to kind of connect the world. Connecting the world, he argued, was enough.

And that was kind of the general feeling among others in the tech industry, that just sort of building the technology, the technology itself would kind of help people, would democratize the world.

And now the thing that Mark Zuckerberg talks about is not just connecting people, but creating meaningful connections. This is a — meaningful is a word he has been using more often lately. And what that means exactly is not clear.

But they plan to change the Facebook news feed to address some of these concerns, both the fake news concerns, but also this idea that Facebook may be kind of putting us into echo chambers, kind of splintering much of our dialogue. Hari Sreenivasan:

Well, Farhad, how much of this has to do with who is designing the underlying technology in the first place? Farhad Manjoo:

This is a big problem for them to solve.

The big tech companies are all based on the West Coast of the United States, several here in California and then a couple in Seattle. Their sort of work forces kind of look the same. They are not very diverse. They are not gender-diverse. They don't have a lot of minorities. They are not kind of class-diverse or geographically diverse.

And they are increasingly gatekeepers for information for not just the United States, but the entire planet. And so you really have this question where there are a small number of people who are essentially homogeneous kind of making decisions for the rest of the world. Hari Sreenivasan:

David Kirkpatrick, what is the likelihood, then, of these technologists attacking the problems that are underlying this, the diversity, the lack of transparency, and the ultimate consequences of the tools that they build? David Kirkpatrick:

Well, I think there is no question that there is a major shift under way in the mind-set of the Silicon Valley work force and the leaders of these companies that they have to do that.

However, as Farhad has written, and as I firmly believe, it is an extremely challenging project to understand the true weight of these massively important systems in our society, and how to actually more effectively manage them.

I mean, it is a question of governance, in effect. And the reality is when the public square is, in effect, dominated by commercial enterprises, who should regulate that is entirely undetermined. Clearly, these people are starting to recognize, if they don't take actions that appear to be in the public's benefit, they will become regulated by a government, both in the United States and abroad. And that process is happening much more in Europe already. They want to desperately avoid that. On the other hand, the ideas aren't really even there on their part as to what really could be done to properly regulate the flow of information, given their fundamental goal of selling advertising to make money on these services, because advertising effectively requires eyeballs and attention. And they still are more in the mind-set of drawing attention than they are of doing the right thing, in my opinion. Hari Sreenivasan:

All right, David Kirkpatrick of Techonomy, and Farhad Manjoo of The New York Times, thank you both. Farhad Manjoo:

Thanks.

Good to be here. Hari Sreenivasan:

Thanks.


Dec 27, 2017 - 2017 was a year of scrutiny for social media and other tech 27 décembre 2017 - 2017 a été une année d'examen minutieux pour les médias sociaux et autres technologies

Hari Sreenivasan:

Technology has traditionally been seen by the public and many in the media in a more hopeful light. Technologie wird traditionell von der Öffentlichkeit und vielen Medien in einem hoffnungsvolleren Licht gesehen. La technologie a traditionnellement été perçue par le public et de nombreux médias sous un jour plus optimiste.

But 2017 felt different, a year that frequently cast technology, and its unintended consequences, in a much harsher light. Aber 2017 fühlte sich anders an, ein Jahr, das Technologie und ihre unbeabsichtigten Folgen häufig in einem viel härteren Licht erscheinen ließ. Mais 2017 a été différente, une année qui a souvent présenté la technologie et ses conséquences imprévues sous un jour beaucoup plus dur. Ma il 2017 è stato diverso, un anno che spesso ha proiettato la tecnologia e le sue conseguenze indesiderate sotto una luce molto più dura.

In a moment, we will have a conversation that I recorded last week in New York, but, first, a quick reminder about some of the major problems this year. Wir werden gleich ein Gespräch führen, das ich letzte Woche in New York aufgezeichnet habe, aber zuerst eine kurze Erinnerung an einige der größten Probleme in diesem Jahr.

Russia used Facebook and social media to try and influence the 2016 elections. Russland nutzte Facebook und soziale Medien, um die Wahlen 2016 zu beeinflussen. The revelations reverberated throughout the nation's capital this year. Die Enthüllungen hallten in diesem Jahr durch die Hauptstadt der Nation. Les révélations se sont répercutées dans toute la capitale nationale cette année. As congressional committees detailed, Russian operatives bought ads that sought to capitalize on racial, religious and political divisions in the U.S. Wie Kongressausschüsse detailliert ausführten, kauften russische Aktivisten Anzeigen, die versuchten, aus rassischen, religiösen und politischen Spaltungen in den USA Kapital zu schlagen Comme les comités du Congrès l'ont détaillé, des agents russes ont acheté des publicités qui cherchaient à capitaliser sur les divisions raciales, religieuses et politiques aux États-Unis. Just 120 fake accounts posted on Facebook 80,000 times and reached as many as 126 million Americans. Nur 120 gefälschte Konten, die 80.000 Mal auf Facebook gepostet wurden und bis zu 126 Millionen Amerikaner erreichten. Seulement 120 faux comptes publiés sur Facebook 80 000 fois et touchés jusqu'à 126 millions d'Américains.

Facebook's CEO, Mark Zuckerberg, initially doubted that the platform could have influenced the election, but later pledged to make political advertising more transparent. Mark Zuckerberg:

Not only will you have to disclose which page paid for an ad, but we will also make it so you can visit an advertiser's page and see the ads that they're currently running to any audience on Facebook. Sie müssen nicht nur offenlegen, welche Seite für eine Anzeige bezahlt wurde, sondern wir sorgen auch dafür, dass Sie die Seite eines Werbetreibenden besuchen und die Anzeigen sehen können, die sie derzeit für ein beliebiges Publikum auf Facebook schalten. Non seulement vous devrez divulguer quelle page a payé pour une publicité, mais nous ferons également en sorte que vous puissiez visiter la page d'un annonceur et voir les publicités qu'il diffuse actuellement auprès de n'importe quel public sur Facebook. Hari Sreenivasan:

Members of both parties were angry at the company's slow admission, but the focus grew beyond just one company to other tech giants, since Russian agents used Twitter, Google and YouTube too. Mitglieder beider Parteien waren verärgert über das langsame Eingeständnis des Unternehmens, aber der Fokus verlagerte sich von nur einem Unternehmen auf andere Technologiegiganten, da russische Agenten auch Twitter, Google und YouTube nutzten. Les membres des deux parties étaient en colère contre la lenteur de l'admission de l'entreprise, mais l'attention s'est étendue au-delà d'une seule entreprise vers d'autres géants de la technologie, puisque les agents russes utilisaient également Twitter, Google et YouTube. The Senate Intelligence Committee grilled top lawyers for the companies. La commission sénatoriale du renseignement a sélectionné les meilleurs avocats des entreprises. Sen. Mark Warner:

Many of us on this committee have been raising this issue since the beginning of this year. Viele von uns in diesem Ausschuss haben dieses Thema seit Anfang dieses Jahres angesprochen. And our claims were, frankly, blown off by the leaderships of your companies, dismissed, so there's no possibility nothing like this happening, nothing to see here. Und unsere Behauptungen wurden, ehrlich gesagt, von den Führungen Ihrer Unternehmen abgewiesen, also gibt es keine Möglichkeit, dass so etwas passiert, hier ist nichts zu sehen. Et nos revendications ont été, franchement, rejetées par les dirigeants de vos entreprises, donc il n'y a aucune possibilité que rien de tel ne se produise, rien à voir ici. Hari Sreenivasan:

Hacking, a perennial problem, took on new urgency this past year. Le piratage, un problème éternel, a pris une nouvelle urgence l'année dernière.

The ransomware cyber-attack called WannaCry temporarily crippled computer systems in hospitals, banks and companies around the world. La cyberattaque par ransomware appelée WannaCry a temporairement paralysé les systèmes informatiques des hôpitaux, des banques et des entreprises du monde entier. More than 230,000 computers in 150 countries were affected. Just a week ago, the Trump administration named the country it says was responsible. Tom Bossert:

After careful investigation, the United States is publicly attributing the massive WannaCry cyber-attack to North Korea. We do not make this allegation lightly. We do so with evidence, and we do so with partners. Hari Sreenivasan:

Hackers also tore into Equifax, one of the largest credit bureaus, stealing the personal information of more than 145 million people. Les pirates ont également pénétré dans Equifax, l'un des plus grands bureaux de crédit, volant les informations personnelles de plus de 145 millions de personnes. They got Social Security numbers, birth dates, addresses and driver's licenses. The tech industry faced a new conversation on inequality by race and gender. L'industrie de la technologie a fait face à une nouvelle conversation sur l'inégalité selon la race et le sexe.

Susan Fowler, a former engineer at Uber, published a damning account of a harassment-filled workplace culture. Susan Fowler, ancienne ingénieure chez Uber, a publié un récit accablant d'une culture de travail remplie de harcèlement. Uber fired 20 employees and it eventually helped lead to the CEO's resignation. She told “TIME” she was amazed by the reaction to her essay. Susan Fowler:

I expected it would be like a 24-hour, like, viral thing, but it didn't slow down at all. And I was reading through all of these things. And I thought like, oh, my gosh, like, I'm not alone. Hari Sreenivasan:

Others, like Ellen Pao, who filed and lost a gender discrimination case against a powerful venture capital firm, said change was needed. D'autres, comme Ellen Pao, qui a déposé et perdu une affaire de discrimination sexuelle contre une puissante société de capital-risque, ont déclaré qu'un changement était nécessaire. Ellen Pao:

Well, I think if playing along means participating in sexist and racist jokes, that expectation has to change. Eh bien, je pense que si jouer le jeu signifie participer à des blagues sexistes et racistes, cette attente doit changer. Hari Sreenivasan:

The year ended with a divisive decision by the FCC that many fear will lead to the end of net neutrality, the idea of treating all content on the Web equally without charging more or blocking your ability to see other content. L'année s'est terminée par une décision controversée de la FCC dont beaucoup craignent qu'elle ne mène à la fin de la neutralité du net, l'idée de traiter tous les contenus sur le Web de la même manière sans facturer plus ni bloquer votre capacité à voir d'autres contenus.

For a closer look at the potential turning point that 2017 is shaping up to be for the most well-known tech giants, I'm joined by two people who follow that world closely. Pour examiner de plus près le tournant potentiel que 2017 s'annonce pour les géants de la technologie les plus connus, je suis rejoint par deux personnes qui suivent ce monde de près. Farhad Manjoo is a New York Times columnist who writes on how technology is changing society and business. And David Kirkpatrick is the founder of Techonomy. He's a technology journalist and author of “The Facebook Effect.” Thank you both for joining us.

So, Farhad, let me start with you.

How did tech shift in our perception this year? Comment la technologie a-t-elle changé notre perception cette année ? Farhad Manjoo:

Yes, I think we got, justifiably, a lot less optimistic about tech, and a lot more worried about the implications of a few big tech companies kind of taking over much of the world, much of our communications, much of how we kind of learn and experience the world, all of our personal information. Oui, je pense que nous sommes devenus, à juste titre, beaucoup moins optimistes à propos de la technologie, et beaucoup plus inquiets des implications de quelques grandes entreprises technologiques qui prennent en quelque sorte le contrôle d'une grande partie du monde, d'une grande partie de nos communications, d'une grande partie de la façon dont nous apprendre et découvrir le monde, toutes nos informations personnelles.

And I think the tech companies responded to that. Et je pense que les entreprises technologiques ont répondu à cela. They started to notice. I mean, after the questions about the Russia hack, after questions about sexual harassment, they started to respond to these criticisms.

And I think the key change they made was a lot of these — a lot of the big tech companies started, at first grudgingly and then more willingly, I think, they started to accept that they have some responsibility to the rest of the world, that their technologies aren't necessarily kind of neutral platforms, and that they have some responsibility to kind of police what happens there. Et je pense que le changement clé qu'ils ont fait était beaucoup de ceux-ci - beaucoup de grandes entreprises technologiques ont commencé, d'abord à contrecœur puis plus volontiers, je pense, elles ont commencé à accepter qu'elles avaient une certaine responsabilité envers le reste du monde, que leurs technologies ne sont pas nécessairement des sortes de plateformes neutres, et qu'elles ont une certaine responsabilité pour contrôler ce qui s'y passe. How that plays out, I think, will be the big question of 2018. Comment cela se déroulera, je pense, sera la grande question de 2018. But this year, I think that the big change is that, in the past, technology companies sort of thought of themselves as kind of neutral. And I think that started to change. They are less neutral now. Hari Sreenivasan:

But, David Kirkpatrick, what happened to make Silicon Valley less the sort of darling of, well, Washington, D.C., as well as Wall Street? Mais, David Kirkpatrick, que s'est-il passé pour que la Silicon Valley soit moins le genre de chouchou de, eh bien, Washington, DC, ainsi que de Wall Street ? David Kirkpatrick:

Well, if there is one single thing that changed the situation, I would say it's Russian fake news affecting the election, in the opinion of — and the desire of Russia to alter our electoral process, and using Facebook and Google, but Facebook in particular, as a key means of doing that. And I think what that concern at a national level did was draw attention to the extraordinary social, cultural and informational weight of these companies, and then caused a lot of people to start asking bigger questions about what it meant that these very small number of tech giants have had such a monumental impact on our social dialogue and have, in effect, become the central platform for social dialogue, and increasingly in many ways for political behavior as well. Et je pense que cette préoccupation au niveau national a attiré l'attention sur l'extraordinaire poids social, culturel et informationnel de ces entreprises, puis a amené beaucoup de gens à commencer à poser de plus grandes questions sur ce que cela signifiait que ce très petit nombre de technologies Les géants ont eu un impact si monumental sur notre dialogue social et sont, en fait, devenus la plate-forme centrale du dialogue social, et de plus en plus, à bien des égards, du comportement politique également. Hari Sreenivasan:

Mark Zuckerberg famously said it is a crazy idea that they would have had any impact on the U.S. Mark Zuckerberg a déclaré que c'était une idée folle qu'ils auraient eu un impact sur les États-Unis elections.

And then, since then, he's made several statements that walked that back. Et puis, depuis lors, il a fait plusieurs déclarations qui ont reculé. David Kirkpatrick:

Right.

He said that to me on my Techonomy stage in 2016 two days after the election, in which, by the way, I also asked him if Facebook had special responsibilities because of its scale. Il m'a dit cela sur ma scène Techonomy en 2016 deux jours après l'élection, au cours de laquelle, soit dit en passant, je lui ai également demandé si Facebook avait des responsabilités particulières en raison de son ampleur. And he essentially demurred on that. Et il s'est essentiellement opposé à cela.

So, again, while I agree with what Farhad said, it is really notable how much he has changed since then. Farhad Manjoo:

I think David is right.

Mark Zuckerberg has changed in a way that I have been surprised by. When he started Facebook, the main sort of idea behind Facebook was that he wanted to kind of connect the world. Connecting the world, he argued, was enough.

And that was kind of the general feeling among others in the tech industry, that just sort of building the technology, the technology itself would kind of help people, would democratize the world. Et c'était un peu le sentiment général parmi d'autres dans l'industrie de la technologie, que le simple fait de construire la technologie, la technologie elle-même aiderait en quelque sorte les gens, démocratiserait le monde.

And now the thing that Mark Zuckerberg talks about is not just connecting people, but creating meaningful connections. Et maintenant, la chose dont parle Mark Zuckerberg n'est pas seulement de connecter les gens, mais de créer des liens significatifs. This is a — meaningful is a word he has been using more often lately. And what that means exactly is not clear.

But they plan to change the Facebook news feed to address some of these concerns, both the fake news concerns, but also this idea that Facebook may be kind of putting us into echo chambers, kind of splintering much of our dialogue. Mais ils prévoient de changer le fil d'actualités de Facebook pour répondre à certaines de ces préoccupations, à la fois les fausses nouvelles, mais aussi cette idée que Facebook pourrait nous mettre dans des chambres d'écho, en divisant une grande partie de notre dialogue. Hari Sreenivasan:

Well, Farhad, how much of this has to do with who is designing the underlying technology in the first place? Eh bien, Farhad, dans quelle mesure cela a-t-il à voir avec qui conçoit la technologie sous-jacente en premier lieu ? Farhad Manjoo:

This is a big problem for them to solve.

The big tech companies are all based on the West Coast of the United States, several here in California and then a couple in Seattle. Their sort of work forces kind of look the same. They are not very diverse. They are not gender-diverse. They don't have a lot of minorities. They are not kind of class-diverse or geographically diverse. Ils ne sont pas en quelque sorte diversifiés en classe ou géographiquement diversifiés.

And they are increasingly gatekeepers for information for not just the United States, but the entire planet. Et ils sont de plus en plus les gardiens de l'information non seulement pour les États-Unis, mais pour la planète entière. And so you really have this question where there are a small number of people who are essentially homogeneous kind of making decisions for the rest of the world. Hari Sreenivasan:

David Kirkpatrick, what is the likelihood, then, of these technologists attacking the problems that are underlying this, the diversity, the lack of transparency, and the ultimate consequences of the tools that they build? David Kirkpatrick, quelle est alors la probabilité que ces technologues s'attaquent aux problèmes qui sous-tendent cela, la diversité, le manque de transparence et les conséquences ultimes des outils qu'ils construisent ? David Kirkpatrick:

Well, I think there is no question that there is a major shift under way in the mind-set of the Silicon Valley work force and the leaders of these companies that they have to do that. Eh bien, je pense qu'il ne fait aucun doute qu'il y a un changement majeur en cours dans l'état d'esprit de la main-d'œuvre de la Silicon Valley et des dirigeants de ces entreprises qu'ils doivent faire cela.

However, as Farhad has written, and as I firmly believe, it is an extremely challenging project to understand the true weight of these massively important systems in our society, and how to actually more effectively manage them. Cependant, comme Farhad l'a écrit, et comme je le crois fermement, comprendre le véritable poids de ces systèmes extrêmement importants dans notre société et comment les gérer plus efficacement est un projet extrêmement difficile.

I mean, it is a question of governance, in effect. And the reality is when the public square is, in effect, dominated by commercial enterprises, who should regulate that is entirely undetermined. Et la réalité, c'est quand la place publique est, en effet, dominée par des entreprises commerciales, qui devraient réguler cela est totalement indéterminé. Clearly, these people are starting to recognize, if they don't take actions that appear to be in the public's benefit, they will become regulated by a government, both in the United States and abroad. De toute évidence, ces personnes commencent à reconnaître que si elles ne prennent pas des mesures qui semblent être dans l'intérêt du public, elles seront réglementées par un gouvernement, tant aux États-Unis qu'à l'étranger. And that process is happening much more in Europe already. They want to desperately avoid that. On the other hand, the ideas aren't really even there on their part as to what really could be done to properly regulate the flow of information, given their fundamental goal of selling advertising to make money on these services, because advertising effectively requires eyeballs and attention. D'un autre côté, les idées ne sont même pas vraiment là de leur part quant à ce qui pourrait réellement être fait pour réguler correctement le flux d'informations, compte tenu de leur objectif fondamental de vendre de la publicité pour gagner de l'argent sur ces services, car la publicité nécessite effectivement des globes oculaires et l'attention. And they still are more in the mind-set of drawing attention than they are of doing the right thing, in my opinion. Et ils sont encore plus dans l'état d'esprit d'attirer l'attention que de faire ce qu'il faut, à mon avis. Hari Sreenivasan:

All right, David Kirkpatrick of Techonomy, and Farhad Manjoo of The New York Times, thank you both. Farhad Manjoo:

Thanks.

Good to be here. Hari Sreenivasan:

Thanks.