3.

Speaker 2:a different opinion than their parents, which teenagers want to do. They want to make something theirs, and here are these four perfect people with great music, and they can elect to spend their money on these records, and they can have their favorite Beatle, and it starts to fuel this mania.

Speaker 1:And do you think the fact that all the bands and the singers that we've talked about up till now who influenced the Beatles have been male, but actually the Beatles are really, really into female groups as well? Do you think that's kind of a contributory factor to their popularity with specifically female audience?

Speaker 2:In his book, Ian Leslie wrote this fantastic book that I absolutely love. I think it's the best Beatles book that's been written in quite a while.

Speaker 1:It's John and Paul, isn't it? John and Paul.

Speaker 2:And in it, he points out something I hadn't really thought of, which is a lot of early Beatles music is influenced by doo-wop groups. If someone just told me that without me thinking about it, I'd say, well, that's stupid, but no, it's not. It's true. They are performing a lot of stuff by male doo-wop groups and also female groups, and I think they are just going for what's the best music, and they are also very interested in getting the vocals right. So they play their own instruments, but I think their secret weapon is their vocal ability. Yeah, and the harmonies. The harmonies, and Everly Brothers, I think were a huge influence on them. But yes, they will play, I mean, Ringo Sings, Boys, and doesn't, they don't.

Speaker 1:Yeah, so the Shirelles number.

Speaker 2:Shirelles number. And they don't change it. They don't change. It'd be so easy to say, girls. It would be so easy to change it, and they don't. Yeah. And it's a little strange, but it's fantastic. And so yes, there is, they're not overly concerned with gender, they're not overly concerned with, you know, no, no, we've got to stick to this image or that image. They're just going where the best music is.

Speaker 1:Now, I know what Dominic would say about the secret of their popularity is also the fact that they are just edgy enough. So they say, she loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah, rather than as Paul's father thought they should she loves you, yes, yes, yes. But they're not going too far. So the kind of the Prelly popping and the, you know, all the kind of Hamburg stuff is being kind of slightly pushed to one side. And Brian has put them in suits by this point. And in the long run, it's the Stones who will play the part of the kind of the bad boys, rock and roll. The Beatles are just edgy enough, but no more so. And they, you know, they famously that they play at the Royal Variety Show. And John has his witty quip.

[For our last number, I'd like to ask your help. The people in the cheaper seats, clap your hands. And the rest of you, if you just rattle your jewellery.]

Speaker 2:Which Noel Coward was, hated that. That's a, I don't know why I remember that, but Noel Coward thought that was atrocious. And this brings up, that performance brings up something really interesting, which is the Beatles represent this new thing, which is class is irrelevant. And they are playing in front of the Queen in a Royal performance. And John makes this joke that is very much about class. And Noel Coward, I think, got upset. People thought, well, this is, how could he? I mean, some people were really taken aback by that, but they are four working class guys who don't change their accents. They don't adopt James Mason accents when they make it big. They have thick Liverpudlian accents and they never try to change it. They don't work on their diction or anything. Yes, they wear the suits because they are ambitious. They're extremely ambitious and they will do what it takes to get to the top.

Speaker 1:So, I mean, it's great to be number one in Britain, to be going around all these kinds of market towns and selling out concerts and headlining and having repeated number ones and all kinds of things. But they have been massively influenced by American music. And for people in Britain to break it in America is the ultimate dream. And British artists have not succeeded in making it in America at all. And Brian is kind of trying to boost their career in America, but it's not really working. And America is distracted apart from anything else by, you know, America has its trauma because when the Beatles second album with the Beatles comes out in Britain, it's the same day that Kennedy is shot in Dallas. And it is often said that that plunges America into a state of kind of mourning and bereavement that leaves them kind of wanting almost to be cheered up. Do you think there's anything in that?

Speaker 2:Yeah. Again, I mean, it's heresy to use the word luck with an assassination and a day that that's awful. But I will say, you know, I do these history experiments in my head sometimes. What if the Beatles had been booked November 30th on The Ed Sullivan Show? What if they had been booked in December?

Speaker 1:It's too soon. So they end up going to the US in February, in February, by which point I Want to Hold Your Hand is number one. And it's crucial that they go there with that single already number one, so that they're not going as, you know, supplicants. They're going as stars.

Speaker 2:This is one of those moments where Paul has subsequently said, we knew to wait until we had number one hits in the US to go over. And if you look into it, I don't think it holds up. I think that Ed Sullivan had been flying in Europe. His plane has a stopover, I think, in, I don't know if he's in Sweden or he's someplace and he sees screaming fans and he says, what's that all about? And he says, it's this group from England, the Beatles.

Speaker 1:These youngsters from Liverpool who call themselves the Beatles.

Speaker 2:Yeah. And so the booking is made before the Beatles have hit number one in America. Again, the timing is perfect. But again, it's not just luck, but luck plays a big part in it.

Speaker 1:So they land in JFK and there's huge press attention and there are crowds of screaming girls. Which surprises them. It does. And it obviously surprises the US media as well. There's kind of incredible footage in the anthology documentary of them arriving outside the hotel with girls just hurling themselves at the window. And it's like they're in a zombie film and it's like the kind of zombie plague has crossed the Atlantic from Britain and now it's arrived in New York. And the screaming and the hysteria becomes part of the story, doesn't it? And it is present when the Beatles appear on the Ed Sullivan show.

Speaker 2:Yeah.

Speaker 1:And that show I think is still the second most viewed program in US history.

Speaker 2:Yeah. I think some reality show has the number one spot, I believe. Someone eating cockroaches. About two years ago, Paul McCartney released pictures that he took because all of them had cameras. They had been given cameras. So Paul called it the eyes of the storm because it's all of them. But he took pictures constantly and I had a chance to interview him about it. And he was talking about being in the center of all that and how surprised they were.

Speaker 1:It's the storm.

Speaker 2:Yeah. And he was just taking all these photos of, a lot of them are just people losing their minds and staring at them. And I think it was George who later said, we just became an excuse for people to lose their minds. People wanted to lose their minds. They needed some kind of fuse or trigger. And this group shows up and yes, the music's great. And yes, they have these incredible personalities. But it's something completely new when everyone says it is time to go insane.

Speaker 1:Yeah. And so that's something that the Beatles are introducing to America. But obviously for the Beatles as well, going to America is a kind of pilgrimage because this is where the music that they have most loved and have been most inspired comes from. And we've said they're particularly influenced by black American music. And so one of the issues that comes up in 1964, when they're going on tour around the US is the question of will they play in segregated stadiums? Because that is still very much a thing. Civil rights movement is still ongoing. And the Beatles are absolutely forthright about this and they will not play. And they managed to force an old stadium here or there to change the ticketing. And other ones, they just say, well, we're not going to play there. So what kind of impact do you think that has?

Speaker 2:I think it's massive. I mean, first of all, it shows that they are not going to bend the knee. They are principled. There are things that they think are important they care about. There's the fact that they will not play in front of segregated audiences. And then almost maybe more important in their press conferences where people hang on every word when asked what groups do they like, they list all these black groups and they talk about Smokey Robinson and the Miracles and they talk about the Supremes and they mention so many black musicians and acts. And it's not calculated. That's just what they love. That's what they love. But there it certainly, I think, is a beautiful moment.

Speaker 1:When they're in New York in the first days of their arrival, they get given the chance to kind of DJ on various radio stations, don't they? And they're just endlessly playing black female groups. Because that's what they love. That's their kind of great influence. And so that sense of the fact that they're not just musicians, but that what they say might matter. I mean, that lasts through 1964 and it lasts through 1965. And there is an assumption that the Beatles will always give interesting copy, but maybe the potential for them to say something that might ultimately turn out to be inflammatory.

Speaker 2:Yes. There's a constant expectation from the minute the Beatles arrive on the scene and it's going so well and it keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Success, success, success, smash hit, smash hit, smash hit. When is the bubble going to burst? And so the pump is primed for something to go wrong.

Speaker 1:So in March 1966, there's a journalist called Maureen Cleave who has known the Beatles very well, known them for about three years, has kind of friends with them. She interviews each one of the Beatles and it runs in the press as an industry, what it's like to be a Beatle. And one of the interviews is with John and he has been reading quite a lot about religion and he gives Maureen some good copy. So he says, Christianity will go, it will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue about that. I'm right and I'll be proved right. We're more popular than Jesus now. And so this runs in the British press and nobody in Britain could care less about it. And these articles then get, they get sold on to publication in America and they appear and still nobody really pays any attention to it. But then there are people in the Bible belt in America who are not keen on the Beatles, sees the Beatles long hair as satanic. Some of them aren't keen on the whole anti-segregation stage. And when some of these people read what John has said, they're less than enthused, aren't they?

Speaker 2:They're less than enthused. It's funny because it's a, we're in 1966, but it's kind of a, before the internet, it's an internet moment because today John would have said that on Wednesday at three o'clock in the afternoon and they'd be outraged on Thursday. This is an interview he does with Maureen Cleave. It run, it takes a while. Yeah. It's actually takes quite a while for it to finally surface and find the right person to hate it. And then it becomes this explosion, this huge controversy. And the article comes out in England and then makes its way across to the States. It takes some time, but then it starts to pick up traction.

Speaker 1:And the Beatles are coming back to America for a tour. Yeah. And by the time they are ready to leave Britain to fly to New York, all hell is breaking loose. And the huge question for listeners is, will this finish the Beatles off? Is this the end of the Beatles? It's all hotting up and I don't think I can take the tension right now. I need a bit of a breather. So let's have a quick break.