2.

Speaker 2:They're living in, I think they share a wall with the theatre, so they're living in conditions that aren't safe.

Speaker 1:Isn't that where George loses his virginity and all the Beatles are kind of on bunks watching him or whatever? I mean it's all very, quite squalid, but properly rock and roll at a time when in America and England still more so, the music is kind of stopping being quite so rock and roll.

Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean there's this period, you know, I think Chuck Berry violates the Mann Act and has to be, I think he goes to jail or is, it's a scandal. Jerry Lee Lewis has his scandal. Yeah, he definitely has a scandal. Buddy Holly dies. And then you have— The big bopper. The big bopper and Ritchie Valens. And Elvis gets drafted of course. Elvis gets drafted.

Speaker 1:Which the Beatles very narrowly avoid because National Service, which is a thing here in England in the 50s, it gets stopped just before they would have become eligible for it.

Speaker 2:And we would all agree that the Beatles would not have done well in National Service.

Speaker 1:It would not have been good. Well because they, it's kind of interesting that when they're driving out to Hamburg for the first time, they go past Arnhem, which is a bridge too far, kind of disastrous. British lose lots of people there. And the story is that John refuses to get out of the van and go and look at the graves and already perhaps a sense there that war in its totality is something to be rejected. And that of course will become a massive theme for John's music and ideals later in life. And I mean it might be there right from the beginning. Although apparently when he's on the stage in Hamburg, he's always shouting out in English, you know, krauts, we beat you in the war. As always with the Beatles, it's never, there's always a kind of creative tension.

Speaker 2:Yeah, John even then is walking that line between, he's goading thugs in a Hamburg crowd to attack him and then relying on security to handle it or a bouncer or someone. Walking that line between, I dare you to hit me.

Speaker 1:And I think quite a few of the bouncers only kind of had one arm or one leg or whatever because they were kind of maimed in the war. So yeah, quite a crucible, I guess. And explains a lot about the kind of band that the Beatles in due course became. You know, come back from Hamburg, they go back to Hamburg, then they come back to Liverpool again. And by this point, so 1961, 1962, they're starting to establish themselves as the biggest name in Liverpool.

Speaker 2:When they come back to Liverpool, there are people who think that they're a German band because they hear that they've come from Hamburg. So, and they're so polished. I mean, they're a completely different act. I think on the scene in Liverpool, there were bands that didn't take them seriously. Then they come back from Hamburg and they've had this education and they've been transmuted.

Speaker 1:They got their leather. And they're down in the cavern and the ceiling is dripping sweat from excited girls who were there in their lunch hour. And it's very fetid and exciting and rock and roll. And it is on the 9th of November, 1961, that a key figure in the story of the Beatles finds his way down the steps into the cavern. And that, of course, is Brian Epstein.

Speaker 2:Yeah. You know, when the colonel finds Elvis, the colonel is very well established as a guy who could take over Elvis's contract. It should be pointed out that Brian Epstein is not that figure. He's working at, I believe, his family's record store, record shop. He's never managed anybody.

Speaker 1:No.

Speaker 2:And he sees this group that really just fascinates him. Particularly John. Particularly John.

Speaker 1:Because Brian is gay. Yep. And he definitely, I think, has a thing for John, doesn't he? Yeah. But he kind of immediately picks up on the fact that this band is amazing. And decides that he is going to try and get them a record contract. Yeah. And although he's never managed anyone, he does kind of have links with the music industry. And he's middle class as opposed to the Beatles, so working class. And in England in the early 60s, that is massively important. And it means that he can make contact with other middle class people, among whom is a producer here in Abbey Road called George Martin. And so, famously, Brian Epstein hawks the Beatles around all kinds of record companies and they turn him down. Decca, famously. Guitar groups are on their way out. Yeah. But George Martin basically is the last port of call to Parlophone EMI. And he says, yeah, okay, I'll give them a go. But George Martin is still not entirely convinced, is he?

Speaker 2:No, he's not. One point I would make, I think should be made, is that in addition to all of their amazing qualities, the Beatles have insane luck. They have incredible luck because many people might have approached them and said, I think I could represent you. Brian Epstein is unusual. He's someone who really loves them for them.

Speaker 1:Yeah.

Speaker 2:He's someone who really respects them as artists and he wants to take care of them. Now, remember, this is the music business. That doesn't happen. Then who does he take them to? Who do they hook up with? George Martin. The people they meet early on are the essential people. And it's some kind of hobbit tale where they meet the exact right person at the exact right time.

Speaker 1:So George Martin hadn't really been a music producer. He'd been a producer of comedy shows.

Speaker 2:The Goon Show.

Speaker 1:The Goon Show. And the Beatles really appreciate that. But it also means that George Martin can appreciate their zany, mop-top humor. So George Harrison famously saying he didn't like George Martin's tie. And George Martin not being unduly offended by that. And so he decides actually that the Beatles have got something. That they've got personality as well as musical ability. But there is one member of the Beatles he doesn't rate. And Stu Suctive by this point has died of a brain hemorrhage. But Pete Best is still on the scene. And George Martin says to Brian, he's got to go. And so the final piece in the jigsaw puzzle now slots into place. Namely Ringo. Yeah. Who you've also met. And you said that you gave him a hug once. And his body is now made of teak.

Speaker 2:Yes. I've met Ringo a number of times. And one time I gave him a hug. And I thought he's carved out of a very dense tropical wood. This man works out, I think obsessively, he just hit his 85th birthday. And I think he could take both of us in a fight. He's in incredible shape.

Speaker 1:Which is amazing. Because Ringo was born in absolutely the poorest part, the most bomb damaged part of Liverpool. And grew up repeatedly being ill. He was always in hospital, kind of missed out on school and all kinds of things. But by the time the Beatles approach him, has established himself as the best drummer in Liverpool. And again, it's the kind of, it's the humor and the personality. Ringo completely gels with them. And George Martin's actually brought a session drummer in to record their first single.

Speaker 2:And his name is? Andy White. Andy White, yes. What's interesting is that people have always wondered or theorized that Pete Best is too good looking and maybe Paul is jealous and they edge him out. But it's been pretty much conclusively proved that he was not a good timekeeper. He couldn't really keep time. And Ringo could play all these different beats, these Latin beats that later on show up in so many Beatles records. So he was the right guy at the right time.

Speaker 1:And so how would you rate Ringo as a drummer?

Speaker 2:Oh, I think he's spectacular. And a lot of top drummers now give it up to Ringo. His feel, he's minimal. And there's a great thing you can see on YouTube, which is if Keith Moon had been the Beatles drummer, if John Bonham had been the Beatles drummer, and you listen to them and you're like, yeah, that wouldn't be the same. It wouldn't work. So is he Gene Krupa or Buddy Rich? No, he's not. He's the best possible drummer for the Beatles.

Speaker 1:Yeah. And actually, so there's the footage that you can see in the background is from a new version of the Anthology documentary series out on Disney. And in these episodes, there's amazing footage of Ringo drumming. You can completely see what he is giving the Beatles. So as I say, the final piece in the jigsaw puzzle is there. And so their first single, Love Me Do, comes out in Britain, which is 17. Brian's shop has bought in box loads of it, crates of the stuff, flogged it across Liverpool. But it's still not obvious that they are going to completely change everything. Yeah. And it's when they then turn up to record their first album, Please Please Me.

[I know you never even tried, girl.][Come on.][Come on.][Come on.][Come on.][Come on.][Come on.][Come on.][Please, please, please.][Oh, yeah.][Like I presume.]

George Martin famously says, gentlemen, you just made your first number one. The sense that this is something special. And one of the key things is that they're not just recording covers. So we should probably just talk about that.

Speaker 2:Yeah.

Speaker 1:Because you said earlier, this is something that marks them out as distinctive.

Speaker 2:Yeah. It is really unusual, isn't it? It's revolutionary. It's unheard of. So what John and Paul were always interested in almost the Brill building tradition of being songwriters. And Paul used to think about being a songwriter, even if it meant he wasn't the one performing the song. They just thought about songwriting. They were working on it for a long time. They're writing things, but not of the quality that they'd later have. But then this moment comes when they've done Love Me Do. It's so-so. It's so-so. You listen to it now and you think, I don't know what all the excitement was. And the truth is, it was number 17. Yeah. Brian probably helped boost them up the charts by buying records himself. So they really need to make it. John has a song that's in the vein of, he's thinking of a Roy Orbison song. And it's written, it's a very slow kind of Roy Orbison ballad.

[Come on, come on, come on, come on.]

Speaker 1:[Please, please, please.][Oh yeah, my God, please do.]

Speaker 2:And they're working on it. It's not coming together. And then they decide, let's pick up the tempo. And they have it. And that's their first number one. The Stones, Dominic's not here, but I wish I could say this to his face. The Stones are doing covers down in London. They hear that there's this group up in Liverpool that's making records, which the Stones are not doing. And they're writing them themselves. And they're flabbergasted. And I think skeptical. And inspired in the long run. In the long run.

Speaker 1:Yeah, it took them a while, Dominic. It took them a while. But they don't do badly either. No, they do just fine. But the quickening up the pace, the harmonies, the shaking of the hair, the twisting and the shouting. When the album goes out, and then She Loves You, and a succession of singles, and the live performances, and girls start screaming. And they start kind of pushing at cordons of policemen. And the Beatles have mentioned they like jelly beans. And so they start hurling jelly beans.

Speaker 2:Yeah, George had said in an interview, I like these whatever they're called, jelly beans. And from then on, he's pelted with them.

Speaker 1:And so quite dangerous because they could take out an eye or two.

Speaker 2:Yeah, he should have mentioned, George should have mentioned a softer treat, maybe a marshmallow. Jelly babies, perhaps.

Speaker 1:But this is a kind of explosion of public teenage female joy of a kind that no one has ever seen before. And I guess it's explained in part by the charisma and the music of the Beatles. But it's also explained by, to put it in Marxist terms, the fact that for the first time, teenage girls have spending money and leisure time. And so you see there again, you talked about how lucky the Beatles are, that they are riding this crest of this wave of growing material prosperity that is kind of giving birth to the idea of the teenager as a consumer. Yeah.

Speaker 2:So another way in which they get incredibly lucky, the timing is spectacular because, as you say, if this had been 10 years earlier, I don't think this maybe could have happened. But they're at the right time. Perfect time where a whole group of teenagers can express.