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How To! with Charles Duhigg, 20200922 How To Win Arguments Like a Hostage Negotiator

20200922 How To Win Arguments Like a Hostage Negotiator

S1: So there's a joke that when you sit down in front of a bomb, you're either right or it's not your problem anymore. So what does that mean? So if you're right, then everything works out and nobody gets killed. And if you're wrong, then you're so close to when it blows up that you don't really have to worry about it.

S2: Welcome to How to. I'm Charles Duhigg.

Each week on the show, we talk to a listener who's struggling with something, who has a problem that's bothering them, and we try to find them some advice.

S3: Yeah. So I recently stumbled across your podcasts and then I was like, man, I. I think I have an issue that I'd like to talk about. This is Shane from Virginia. Basically, I think it boils down to what I would call the appropriate level of assertiveness. And I find that I don't have like a good reaction for for confrontation in social settings. And I think that it would be nice to kind of figure that out.

S4: What's what's a situation where you you wish you had calibrated your assertiveness a little bit differently.

S1: So I got four kids actually have a fifth on the way. And we've we've had our struggles with finding a good daycare. And a couple of years back, we had someone that was recommended to us and she seemed like a good fit. But we often found that she'd come over and we'd say, you know, help yourself to anything that you need. And in her mind, she would then proceed to bring over her kids and clean out our groceries. Most of it was gone. And instead of, like, confronting her and making a scene, we just sort of went with it. And then as soon as we had a replacement, we just stopped talking to her ever again.

S4: Shane doesn't like confrontation and in fact, he tends to avoid it. But at the same time, it bugs him when he feels like people are walking all over him.

S1: I have a few times, you know, attempted of being more assertive. And what it seems like happens is the fallout from the other person. makes me feel like a jerk. makes me feel like a jerk. So I need to be more understanding and and I sort of have that battle in my head and then I always regret it afterwards.

S4: And why do you regret it? Like, what bugs you about that?

S1: Well, I either overpay for something or I just feel like I got taken advantage of.

S4: The thing is, Shayne's not like a meek or timid person. He's spent most of his life in the military, sometimes in war zones, and his job is intense. He disables bombs like that guy in the movie The Hurt Locker. Everybody get like.

S5: You realize every time you suit up. It's life or death.

S4: I imagine you have to be pretty assertive if if you're if you're defusing a bomb, you can't be second guessing yourself at some point you got to commit and clipped the wire, right.

S1: Well, so our schoolhouse motto is initial success or total failure. And so that means you get it right every time or it's a complete bust.

S4: So it's not like Shane can't handle fear or anxiety or pressure, but when it comes to his day to day life, it gets hard for him to muster that assertiveness. His empathy often gets the best of him, and that makes it hard to demand what he deserves or to or to play hardball in negotiations.

S1: And I think that all that kind of mixes into this cocktail of doubt, like I'm just constantly being taken advantage of and I got to stop the cycle.

S4: And that's why we brought in this week's expert, a former hostage negotiator named Chris Voss. So, Chris, let me ask you, you know, you've you've spent your entire career trying to figure out how to get inside people's heads. What's your initial impressions of where you think Shane is?

S6: Well, not just my impressions of where Shane is, but the nature of your questions as well. You know, you keep asking him, why doesn't he hit back? And you never asked him once about, well, why don't you try to understand first? So typically what everybody sees is either we're understanding or we're either asserting for ourselves. We can't do both. In the nature of your questions along the way was, you know, why don't you stand up for yourself more? Why didn't you say this? Why didn't you say that? I think you could have done better.

S7: Chris Voss, as you can hear, has no problem being assertive or telling me that I'm doing my job all wrong. And that confidence served him really well when he was an FBI negotiator, persuading terrorists to listen to him.

S2: On today's show, Chris will share some of his secrets and tell Shane how he can turn his empathy from a stumbling block into a kind of superpower. He has techniques that all of us can use to stand up for ourselves and get what we want.

S8: So stay with us or else Chris Voss will find you.

S4: Long before Chris Voss was with the FBI or before he started his own consulting firm to help clients in high stakes transactions, he was just this beat cop who is riding around in his patrol car.

S6: That was a classic, you know, cop mentality is solve the problem and move on. Somebody else needs your help. Solve this now and go to the next person who needs your help, which unfortunately is a very direct, aggressive approach. You think you're being direct and honest. The other side sees you as combative and aggressive, which is one of the problems with law enforcement today.

S4: But then he started working with a new partner, someone who had a different approach.

S6: And I ended up riding with a guy, this detective, who, you know, just with his tone of voice work, magic. I mean, just and I and I saw this guy with a tone of voice solve problems and make people think about things in a different way. That just blew me away, you know, tone of voice. How stupid is that? How could that make such a difference?

S4: Chris eventually joined the FBI and he was brought into this unit that is specialized in negotiating with criminals who had taken hostages. The guys who got people to cooperate without a hammer because they wanted to cooperate.

S6: And I saw those guys working magic, establishing connections with people. And then I wanted to learn more about how those guys did that, because those guys made cases that nobody else could make.

S7: He went on to use these tactics on kidnappers and terrorists, all kinds of bad people. You remember there was this one particularly tense negotiation, a phone call which involved some bank robbers and a getaway van.

S9: I said, you know, we we got a van out here. We've been able to identify all of the owners of the vans except this one. And he said, we only have one van. I don't know what to say, I mean, like what? So my training is to repeat the last couple of words when I'm flummoxed because I don't know what else to say.

S4: There's a name for this. It's the mirroring technique.

S9: I say so you only have van? And he goes, yeah, well, we got more than one van. I said you have more than one van? He said, well, you chased my driver away. I said, we chased your driver away? He said, yeah, well, you saw the police, you cut and run. Now, what he just did was tell us that there was a third accomplice who was the getaway driver, and we had no clue that there was a third accomplice. Now, this was a guy who was watching everything he said. The mirror caused him to connect thoughts and to keep talking and then to share information that he had no intention of sharing with us. It caused us to catch up to the third bank robber, get a conviction, and then ultimately convict all three of the bank robbers based on the things that were said on the phone, on a line that he knew was being recorded.

S2: This is how negotiations often occur, says Chris, you don't know exactly what's going on all the time, but as long as you have a plan in mind, you can figure out how to muddle through until you learn what you need to know.

S6: Now, from Shane's perspective, he thinks he that he can be understanding or he can assert. He is conflict-avoidant. There's nothing wrong with that. Everybody assumes that to be assertive, you've got to be rough about it. You've got to be attacking. You've got to call the other person names. You know, I'll I'll evoke a couple of poster children for negotiation styles.

S4: Donald Trump. The president of the United States calls the shots.

S9: He's the poster child for negotiations that it's attacking, calling people names.

S2: Well, I have the ultimate authority.

S6: The president... Beating the other side into submission. That's what assertion is. Well, let's contrast it with Oprah Winfrey. I know you all are feeling it to America. People are so rude these days, aren't they? Now, people don't see Oprah as assertive. I would ask you, globally, who is notable for having gotten into an argument with Oprah. I can't think of anyone.

S4: It's like asking like like who's who's been in a fight with Bambi, like it doesn't happen.

S6: And how many Hollywood celebrities has Oprah had a tiff with? I'm here to tell you, I know of quite a few. Why don't they spill out into the open? Because she is emotional intelligence. She's relationship focused and assertion focused. Empathy has become synonymous with sympathy. And it is not it was never meant that way, ever. Empathy is understanding. It's been able to fully articulate a complete demonstration of understanding. When you can cross that, you go from being Donald Trump to being Oprah Winfrey. It's astonishing what you can get people to collaborate with you on once they know that you know where they're coming from.

S2: So empathy can be a powerful negotiating tool, but you need to have a plan for how you use it to help you. Take, for instance, this one experience Shane had where his empathy initially put him at a disadvantage. It was a couple of years ago when his family decided to break a lease so they could move to a bigger house.

S1: And my landlord was very like accusatory, like, how could you do this to me? I thought you were going to rent through February. You know, I have a kid and and we had felt really bad. And and she said, you know, per the terms of the lease, I'm going to need you to pay through the end of November and I'm going to keep one hundred percent of your deposit. She acted like we were putting her in a bad spot and that it was going to be a long time to rent. And so we kind of let it go. We didn't make a big deal. We agreed to this arrangement that was, you know, we thought was helping her out. And then I went back there. It was like four days after we moved out, I went back there to just pick up some tools. I left in the yard and somebody else was already living there. And I talked to them about it. And they have been lined up for like almost as soon as we gave notice. So, you know, I was mad. And so I went back to my landlord and I was like, listen, you made this impression that I was taking advantage of you and come to find out you've taken advantage of us. When you called her up and you sort of unloaded on her that way, what did she say in response? So she reiterated her initial stance like, I'm on the hook for these properties if they don't get rented. And like, any time that I tried to say, OK, you have a renter now you can give us our money back, she just kept reiterating like I have a family to provide for. And I think that she was probably just, you know, playing on my guilt for feeling bad about breaking the lease. And it basically worked like we could have gone to court over it. And I just felt like, you know, just paying the money and walking away was a better option.

S7: Shane's empathy didn't help him in that situation. In fact, it hurt him, but that doesn't mean he should extinguish that empathy. It just means he needs to learn to use it differently. And that's actually our first rule. Recognize that emotional intelligence, things like empathy, can actually be really powerful tools when you're negotiating. Because when you voice your empathy, when you show someone that you understand their problems, you disarm them and you make them more willing to cooperate. Basically, you achieve the trust you need to have a productive conversation. In one of the best ways to show empathy, says Chris, is to start a sentence with the words you believe or you feel and then say what you think the other person is thinking or feeling and then just shut up. Avoid the temptation to say more and force them to fill the silence.

S6: All right. So what was your landlord's perspective on the whole thing?

S1: Start out with you feel you feel like we're leaving you in a bad spot because it's not a good rental season and nobody's really moving. And you're afraid to mark the apartment's going to be vacant for a month or two before you can get a renter. Perfect.

S6: Now, if you would have said that, what's your fear of the position that it would leave you in.

S1: Exposed to be on the hook for this amount that I, you know, I felt was unjustly owed.

S6: Right. And that's until we learn how this works. That's what we feel the real dilemma is. We feel like if we demonstrate understanding we're exposed.

S7: Chris says this feeling is totally natural. All of us have a part of our brain called the amygdala, which exists to alert us to vulnerabilities and to make us cautious. But sometimes it can lead us astray.

S6: The amygdala is wired to be seventy five percent negative, so your survival mode is wired to always overreact negatively to everything you're faced with until you learn the difference between survival and success. And we're not wired for success as human beings. We're wired to survive. And that's why, having not gone down this path before, your initial instinct, which is actually your caveman wiring, is like, I'm exposed, I'm going to have to give it.

S1: What I often do is I wargame the whole conversation in my head before I even open my mouth. And I've got this, like, weird strategy, like, OK, they say this, I'll say this, blah, blah, blah. And that just knocks all that off the table and it'll just take a beat and annunciate to them clearly that you understand what their motivation is and then shut up and and even just rethinking some of my problems and stating them like that, it takes away the whole stress of like negotiating and coming up with rebuttals.

S6: You said it takes away the stress, tactical empathy. We call this tactical empathy does more for you than it does for them, and it does a lot for them.

S4: So, Chris, how do we do that? How do we get to that place where we can just say what's in the other person's head, particularly if we're all riled up? How do I get to a place where I can say, here's what it seems like is going on for you and then not say anything else? How do I train myself to do that?

S6: Alright, I'm gonna test your age cuz I'm old and I could answer this question. How do you get to Carnegie Hall?

S4: It's not the right on 42nd. It's practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice. There you go. Exactly.

S6: A lot of people like I asked somebody that the other day and they're like, what are you to I got to Google that to figure that out. You know, it's always small stakes practice. You know, and we got people around us all the time, you know, you lift driver, anybody, you get on the phone with them and really we got no skin in the game because you you're not going to deploy a new technique in something as important as an interaction with a landlord if you haven't tried it out on the people in your everyday life, just to see what the reaction is.

S4: Let's say I've been practicing. Let's say let's say I've been practicing with my wife. My kids have been practicing with the the grocery, you know, checkout person. I've I've gotten good at saying what's going on in their head and then just shutting up. And 50 percent of the time that's going to work. But what about the other 50 percent? Let's say I do that with a landlord. Right. Landlord says, thank you so much. You're exactly right. And that's why I want you to pay all the money that I think you owe me and a little bit more. What do I do next?

S6: Now, if you fully empathize, demonstrate understanding with somebody and they still come back at you hard, you now just found out that this person is never going to make a favorable deal with me.

S10: Happens all the time. So more than likely, you finish, you get it. That's right. And they don't say another word. Now, how do we keep this back into gear? The secret to gaining the upper hand in negotiations, given the other side, the illusion of control. The first thing you want to do is say, how do you want to proceed, having given them the illusion of control. I now need to know, are they on the verge of offering me something that I like?

S6: I got to give him a chance to do that without making him feel backed into a corner. So I'm going to my first move is going to be a how question. They got no answer, my next move after that is a no oriented question. Is it ridiculous for me to offer something that would work for me? What's the answer to that? They're going to say no, but again, people feel safe and protected when they say no. I'm continuing to shave the odds in my favor. These are my last ditch efforts at making a collaborative deal.

S4: So I, I want them to say no, because that's the way I always come into this is I think like I want them to be agreeable. I want to find something we can agree on some common ground. Right. But you're saying no, don't go for the question that gets a yes.

S6: Go for the question that gets a no. The last person that talked you into something that you regretted. They got you to say yes a whole bunch of times. What did that do to you made you leery of anybody trying to get you to say yes.

S4: So I want to ask a question that they're going to say no too. And is that because it makes them feel like they're in control? Absolutely.

S7: So this is our next rule. Give the other party the illusion of control by asking how do you want to proceed and then ask them a question that they can say no too. No one likes feeling coerced into saying yes. So give the other person a chance to tell you no.

S2: When we come back, Chris will share a few more tactics with us, including his amazing method to get a free upgrade every time he checks into a hotel.

S8: Stay with us.

S2: If you like this episode, you should check out another one called How to Convince People to Give You Money, which features expert tips from a kind of unlikely source con artists. You can find it in all of our episodes by subscribing for free to our podcast feed.

S7: We're back with Shane and our expert, Chris Voss, author of the book Never Split the Difference Negotiating As If Your Life Depended on It.

S10: I got to tell you something.

S6: Every time we check into a hotel, we get stuff for free. Yeah. Every time. And, you know, and and this is this is our practice is how we deal with our hotel. I walk up and I say, I'm getting ready to make your day ridiculously painful. And then I watch him just fall, because if they worked in a hotel, they got no idea. You know, you know, you got you got eight heads in a duffel bag. They don't know what the hell are you doing? You know, you got you've got a goat in the bag. You're going to do a ritual sacrifice up in a room. They've seen everything, right? So then I say I'm getting ready to sound like a self-centered, self-involved hotel guest. They want something for nothing. And now now they're like, because I'm stripping away by calling out the negatives, by calling out the potential elephants in the room, I'm getting rid of them one at a time. Now they're looking at me in a completely different way. That automatically inoculates me from that perception. Their their reaction to that is, boy, this guy understands the kind of nonsense I'm trying to deal with. And the last thing I say is how much trouble do I get you in for trying to get an upgrade to a suite for free?

S11: We get suites every time. This is what about how about a downtown view, I can move you into a downtown view. Now he's killing himself. Wow.

S1: Shane, let me ask you, have have you ever tried anything like that?

S6: So my my now wife, we met at a karaoke night and, you know, I had a little bit of liquid courage and we had been hanging out and I said, so how how cliche would it be if I kissed you right now? Instead of answering she kissed me. And it was like totally worked. Look at you, man. Look at you. You get this in. You saw you know, you get to know how to use your powers for for for more good.

S4: Shane, when you think about the conversation with the landlord. And, you know, Chris had talked about giving giving the other person the illusion of control, asking a how question, putting them in a position where they can say no, what question do you think you could have asked your landlord after you had made this expression of empathy that would have put them in a position where where they have the illusion of control and are more willing to work with you.

S6: You know, I was thinking and and maybe this gives them too much control, but I was thinking, you know, how do we come to a solution here that we can both be happy with? I like that a lot. I here's how I change the tail end of that. How do we come to a solution here that we both don't end up hating each other after this is all over?

S4: That's interesting. What's the difference there? Like, why why that why that ending?

S6: Well, when you say that we can both be happy with, my reaction is like you're only interested in your happiness. You could care less if you're happy about me. So the prospect of hating someone over a bad deal has happened enough to people, and that was my hotel clerk question, how do I get an upgrade out of you without making everybody else mad at you? You consider the negative and chose a path to avoid the negative. That's interesting. So it's the evoking the negative and letting people resolve it in their minds before they move forward has a higher success rate than dangling the positive. Because everybody dangles a positive, it's a lure.

S2: And this is our next rule, acknowledge the negative, mention it, highlight the negative consequences that everyone wants to avoid. In other words, you should go ahead and state the obvious. We both want to avoid bad feelings. So rather than pretending that they don't exist, let's acknowledge the things could get bad. And then we agree. No one wants that.

S9: You don't get rid of the elephant in a room by ignoring it, but if you say, look, there's an elephant in the room, here's the elephant. Look at it, look at it right there.

S11: People's reactions to it are like, oh, yeah, but that's not that big a deal.

S6: And that's what, you know, bring people's attention to the negatives fearlessly instead of denying that they're there. I don't want you to think I'm going to be a jerk. You say I'm probably going to look like a jerk. That two mm shit is massive in its impact to your advantage. Now you're getting smarter. You're gaining more of a feel for it, and you're beginning to understand, like, you know, if I smile at him and say three things in a row with a big smile on my face, I will watch them change every time my smile impacts. That's pretty cool. Now, now you got more data to recalibrate your approach.

S4: OK, so let's say let's say we're in this situation. We've gone in we've we followed your playbook. What usually happens next? Like like what's happening in the negotiation at that point and what's our next move?

S6: Yeah, well, I mean, I've already asked for permission if I've demonstrated empathy, I got nothing. Let's say I've asked the illusion of control how question. I got nothing. I asked no oriented question. I got nothing. There's nothing left. That's it. Yeah, you know, you you you walk, you make the deal, you you you have the snipers shoot them, you know, you know, you're not going to make every deal.

S7: Which brings us to our final rule. In order to get what you want, you might have to experiment and try tactics that are outside of your comfort zone. And and that might feel awkward, particularly at first. But if you practice it, say, in low stakes situations and you try different approaches, it'll over time become more and more natural. It's the same way you get to Carnegie Hall.

S6: I mean, how did you learn to be a bomb tech? Did you go out and start wiring up C4 right away? Well, you're right.

S1: We we spent a lot of time putting fake blasting caps and a fake C4 before, you know, we went out and did a ...

S6: Small stakes practice, right? I mean, I'd be scared. And personally, I have dealt with bomb techs when I was an FBI agent. I think you guys are crazy. I like that you guys want to play with explosives because I want to get as far away from them as I can. And you guys go take care of it for me. You guys you guys are courageous guys, but you got there one step at a time. You try. There is no good and bad. There's trained and there's untrained. You went and found ways to do small stakes practice. You got the movements down same way you get your tone of voice down, same way you get your practice in describing the other person's perspective to them. And how long did it take you to become certified as a bomb tech? Over a year of just straight training. So where would you be a year from now if you got in small stakes practice?

S1: I think that it would be a total change in my demeanor when I approach a conversation.

S9: We should last you for the rest of your life. It's a cool thought, isn't it? Absolutely.

S12: Thank you to Shane for sharing your story with us and to Chris Voss for his fantastic advice, if you like what he had to say, you would definitely love his book. Never split the difference. Do you have a problem that needs solving? If you do, you should negotiate with us by sending us a note at howto@slate.com or you can use the hardball tactics and leave a voicemail at six four six four nine five four zero zero one. And if you're successful, we'll have you on the show. Howto's executive producer is Derek John. Rachel Allen is our production assistant and Mayor Jacob is our engineer. Our theme music is by Janice Brown. June Thomas is the senior managing producer and Alicia Montgomery is the executive producer of Slate podcasts. Gabriel Roth is Slate's editorial director of audio. Special thanks to Rosemarie Bellson. I'm Charles Duhigg.

S7: Thanks for listening.

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S1: So there’s a joke that when you sit down in front of a bomb, you’re either right or it’s not your problem anymore. ||||||||||||||bomb||||||||| S1: Есть такая шутка, что когда вы садитесь перед бомбой, вы либо правы, либо это уже не ваша проблема. So what does that mean? So if you’re right, then everything works out and nobody gets killed. And if you’re wrong, then you’re so close to when it blows up that you don’t really have to worry about it. |||||||||||||||||||||||blows|||||||||| Если вы правы, то все получится и никто не погибнет. А если вы ошибаетесь, то вы так близки к тому моменту, когда все взорвется, что вам не придется об этом беспокоиться.

S2: Welcome to How to. I'm Charles Duhigg. ||杜希格 ||Duhigg

Each week on the show, we talk to a listener who's struggling with something, who has a problem that's bothering them, and we try to find them some advice. |||||||||listener||||||||||bothering||||||||| Каждую неделю в шоу мы беседуем со слушателем, который с чем-то борется, у которого есть проблема, которая его беспокоит, и пытаемся найти для него совет.

S3: Yeah. So I recently stumbled across your podcasts and then I was like, man, I. I think I have an issue that I'd like to talk about. |||偶然发现|||||||||||||||||||||| |||came|||||||||||||||||||||| Недавно я наткнулся на ваши подкасты и подумал, что у меня есть проблема, о которой я хотел бы поговорить. This is Shane from Virginia. ||Shane||Virginia Basically, I think it boils down to what I would call the appropriate level of assertiveness. |||||||||||||||自信果断 ||||boils|||||||||||self-assured confidence |||||||||||||||αυτοπεποί Basicamente, penso que se resume ao que eu chamaria o nível adequado de assertividade. В основном, я думаю, все сводится к тому, что я бы назвал соответствующим уровнем напористости. And I find that I don't have like a good reaction for for confrontation in social settings. |||||||||||||对抗||| |||||||||||||confrontation|||situations И я обнаружил, что у меня не очень хорошая реакция на конфронтацию в социальной среде. And I think that it would be nice to kind of figure that out. E penso que seria bom descobrir isso. И я думаю, что было бы неплохо выяснить это.

S4: What's what's a situation where you you wish you had calibrated your assertiveness a little bit differently. |||||||||||调整|||||| |||||||||||calibrated|||||| |||||||||||ρυθμισμένο|||||| S4: В какой ситуации вы бы хотели, чтобы ваша ассертивность была выверена немного по-другому.

S1: So I got four kids actually have a fifth on the way. S1: У меня четверо детей, пятый на подходе. And we've we've had our struggles with finding a good daycare. ||||||||||παιδικός στα ||||||||||child care center И у нас были трудности с поиском хорошего детского сада. And a couple of years back, we had someone that was recommended to us and she seemed like a good fit. Пару лет назад нам порекомендовали одну девушку, и она показалась нам подходящей. But we often found that she'd come over and we'd say, you know, help yourself to anything that you need. Mas muitas vezes ela vinha cá e nós dizíamos-lhe: "Sirva-se de tudo o que precisar". Но мы часто видели, как она приходила к нам и говорила, мол, угощайтесь всем, что вам нужно. And in her mind, she would then proceed to bring over her kids and clean out our groceries. |||||||||||||||||杂货食品 И в ее воображении она должна была привести своих детей и вычистить наши продукты. Most of it was gone. Большая часть его исчезла. And instead of, like, confronting her and making a scene, we just sort of went with it. ||||对质|||||||||||| И вместо того, чтобы противостоять ей и устраивать сцену, мы просто смирились с этим. And then as soon as we had a replacement, we just stopped talking to her ever again. ||||||||替代者|||||||| E depois, assim que tivemos um substituto, deixámos de falar com ela. А потом, как только у нас появилась замена, мы просто перестали с ней общаться.

S4: Shane doesn't like confrontation and in fact, he tends to avoid it. ||||对抗|||||||| S4: Шейн не любит конфронтации и, по сути, старается ее избегать. But at the same time, it bugs him when he feels like people are walking all over him. ||||||烦恼||||||||||| Mas, ao mesmo tempo, incomoda-o quando sente que as pessoas estão a passar por cima dele. Но в то же время его раздражает, когда ему кажется, что люди ходят вокруг него.

S1: I have a few times, you know, attempted of being more assertive. ||||||||||||more self-assured С1: Несколько раз я пытался быть более напористым. And what it seems like happens is the fallout from the other person. ||||||||后果|||| ||||||||negative consequences|||| И кажется, что все это происходит из-за того, что другой человек не дает вам покоя. makes me feel like a jerk. заставляет меня чувствовать себя придурком. makes me feel like a jerk. |||||混蛋 So I need to be more understanding and and I sort of have that battle in my head and then I always regret it afterwards. Поэтому мне нужно быть более понимающей, и я как бы веду эту битву в своей голове, а потом всегда жалею об этом.

S4: And why do you regret it? Like, what bugs you about that? Что вас в этом беспокоит?

S1: Well, I either overpay for something or I just feel like I got taken advantage of. ||||多付钱|||||||||||| С1: Ну, я либо переплачиваю за что-то, либо чувствую, что мной просто воспользовались.

S4: The thing is, Shayne's not like a meek or timid person. ||||||||温顺的||| ||||Shayne is||||||| С4: Дело в том, что Шейн не похож на кроткого или робкого человека. He's spent most of his life in the military, sometimes in war zones, and his job is intense. Большую часть своей жизни он провел в армии, иногда в зонах боевых действий, и работа у него напряженная. He disables bombs like that guy in the movie The Hurt Locker. |拆除|||||||||| |||||||||||bomb disposal expert Он обезвреживает бомбы, как тот парень из фильма "Запертый на замок". Everybody get like. Toda a gente fica tipo.

S5: You realize every time you suit up. S5: Apercebemo-nos sempre que vestimos o fato. S5: Ты понимаешь это каждый раз, когда одеваешься. It's life or death. Это жизнь или смерть.

S4: I imagine you have to be pretty assertive if if you're if you're defusing a bomb, you can't be second guessing yourself at some point you got to commit and clipped the wire, right. ||||||||自信果断||||||拆除炸弹|||||||||||||||||剪断线||| S4: Imagino que é preciso ser bastante assertivo se se está a desarmar uma bomba, não se pode estar a duvidar de si próprio, a certa altura tem de se comprometer e cortar o fio, certo? С4: Я представляю, что вы должны быть довольно напористым, если вы обезвреживаете бомбу, вы не можете сомневаться в том, что в какой-то момент вы должны сделать это и перерезать провод, верно.

S1: Well, so our schoolhouse motto is initial success or total failure. ||||校训|校训|||||| S1: Bem, o lema da nossa escola é o sucesso inicial ou o fracasso total. С1: Ну, девиз нашей школы - первоначальный успех или полный провал. And so that means you get it right every time or it's a complete bust. ||||||||||||||彻底失败 А это значит, что каждый раз у вас будет получаться правильно, или это будет полный провал.

S4: So it's not like Shane can't handle fear or anxiety or pressure, but when it comes to his day to day life, it gets hard for him to muster that assertiveness. |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||鼓起||自信 С4: Не то чтобы Шейн не мог справиться со страхом, тревогой или давлением, но когда дело доходит до повседневной жизни, ему становится трудно проявить эту напористость. His empathy often gets the best of him, and that makes it hard to demand what he deserves or to or to play hardball in negotiations. |||||||||||||||||||||||硬球|| |||||||||||||||||||||||tough tactics|| A sua empatia leva muitas vezes a melhor sobre ele, o que torna difícil exigir o que merece ou jogar duro nas negociações. Его сочувствие часто берет верх, и это мешает ему требовать того, что он заслуживает, или вести жесткие переговоры.

S1: And I think that all that kind of mixes into this cocktail of doubt, like I'm just constantly being taken advantage of and I got to stop the cycle. С1: И я думаю, что все это смешивается в коктейль из сомнений, что мной постоянно пользуются, и я должен остановить этот цикл.

S4: And that's why we brought in this week's expert, a former hostage negotiator named Chris Voss. ||||||||||||||||Chris Voss S4: Именно поэтому мы пригласили эксперта этой недели, бывшего переговорщика по захвату заложников по имени Крис Восс. So, Chris, let me ask you, you know, you've you've spent your entire career trying to figure out how to get inside people's heads. Итак, Крис, позвольте спросить вас, вы ведь всю свою карьеру пытались понять, как проникнуть в головы людей. What's your initial impressions of where you think Shane is? |||初步印象|||||| Каковы ваши первые впечатления о том, где, по-вашему, находится Шейн?

S6: Well, not just my impressions of where Shane is, but the nature of your questions as well. С6: Ну, не только мои впечатления о том, где находится Шейн, но и характер ваших вопросов. You know, you keep asking him, why doesn't he hit back? Perguntamos-lhe sempre: porque é que ele não responde? Знаете, вы все время спрашиваете его, почему он не отвечает? And you never asked him once about, well, why don't you try to understand first? И вы ни разу не спросили его о том, почему бы вам не попытаться сначала понять? So typically what everybody sees is either we're understanding or we're either asserting for ourselves. Поэтому обычно все видят, что мы либо понимаем, либо отстаиваем свою точку зрения. We can't do both. Мы не можем делать и то, и другое. In the nature of your questions along the way was, you know, why don't you stand up for yourself more? A natureza das suas perguntas ao longo do caminho era: "Porque é que não se defende mais? Ваши вопросы по ходу дела звучали так: "Почему бы вам не постоять за себя? Why didn't you say this? Почему вы не сказали об этом? Why didn't you say that? I think you could have done better. Я думаю, вы могли бы сделать лучше.

S7: Chris Voss, as you can hear, has no problem being assertive or telling me that I'm doing my job all wrong. S7: Крис Восс, как вы можете слышать, не возражает против того, чтобы быть напористым или говорить мне, что я делаю свою работу неправильно. And that confidence served him really well when he was an FBI negotiator, persuading terrorists to listen to him. И эта уверенность сослужила ему хорошую службу, когда он работал в ФБР переговорщиком, убеждая террористов прислушаться к нему.

S2: On today's show, Chris will share some of his secrets and tell Shane how he can turn his empathy from a stumbling block into a kind of superpower. |||||||||||||||||||同理心|||绊脚石|||||| S2: No programa de hoje, o Chris vai partilhar alguns dos seus segredos e dizer ao Shane como pode transformar a sua empatia de um obstáculo numa espécie de superpotência. S2: В сегодняшнем шоу Крис поделится некоторыми своими секретами и расскажет Шейну, как превратить свою эмпатию из камня преткновения в своего рода суперспособность. He has techniques that all of us can use to stand up for ourselves and get what we want. Ele tem técnicas que todos nós podemos utilizar para nos defendermos e conseguirmos o que queremos. У него есть приемы, которые каждый из нас может использовать, чтобы постоять за себя и добиться желаемого.

S8: So stay with us or else Chris Voss will find you.

S4: Long before Chris Voss was with the FBI or before he started his own consulting firm to help clients in high stakes transactions, he was just this beat cop who is riding around in his patrol car. ||||||||||||||||||||||高风险|交易|||||巡逻警察||||||||巡逻车| S4: Muito antes de Chris Voss ter estado no FBI ou de ter começado a sua própria empresa de consultoria para ajudar clientes em transacções de alto risco, ele era apenas um polícia de ronda que andava no seu carro patrulha. S4: Задолго до того, как Крис Восс стал сотрудником ФБР или открыл собственную консалтинговую фирму, помогающую клиентам в сделках с высокими ставками, он был просто полицейским, разъезжающим на своей патрульной машине.

S6: That was a classic, you know, cop mentality is solve the problem and move on. ||||||||警察心态||||||| С6: Это был классический, знаете ли, менталитет полицейского - решить проблему и двигаться дальше. Somebody else needs your help. Кому-то еще нужна ваша помощь. Solve this now and go to the next person who needs your help, which unfortunately is a very direct, aggressive approach. Решите эту проблему сейчас и переходите к следующему человеку, которому нужна ваша помощь, что, к сожалению, является очень прямым, агрессивным подходом. You think you're being direct and honest. The other side sees you as combative and aggressive, which is one of the problems with law enforcement today. ||||||好斗的|||||||||||| Другая сторона видит в вас бойца и агрессора, что является одной из проблем современной правоохранительной системы.

S4: But then he started working with a new partner, someone who had a different approach. С4: Но потом он начал работать с новым партнером, у которого был другой подход.

S6: And I ended up riding with a guy, this detective, who, you know, just with his tone of voice work, magic. S6: И в итоге я поехал с парнем, детективом, который, знаете, просто своим тоном работал, как волшебник. I mean, just and I and I saw this guy with a tone of voice solve problems and make people think about things in a different way. ||||||||||||||||问题|||||||||| Я просто видел, как этот парень с интонацией решал проблемы и заставлял людей думать о вещах по-другому. That just blew me away, you know, tone of voice. Isso surpreendeu-me, sabe, o tom de voz. Это просто поразило меня, вы знаете, тон голоса. How stupid is that? Как это глупо? How could that make such a difference?

S4: Chris eventually joined the FBI and he was brought into this unit that is specialized in negotiating with criminals who had taken hostages. The guys who got people to cooperate without a hammer because they wanted to cooperate. S4: В конце концов Крис поступил на работу в ФБР, и его взяли в подразделение, которое специализировалось на переговорах с преступниками, захватившими заложников. Парни, которые заставляли людей сотрудничать без молотка, потому что они хотели сотрудничать.

S6: And I saw those guys working magic, establishing connections with people. And then I wanted to learn more about how those guys did that, because those guys made cases that nobody else could make. E depois quis saber mais sobre como é que esses tipos faziam isso, porque esses tipos criavam casos que mais ninguém conseguia criar.

S7: He went on to use these tactics on kidnappers and terrorists, all kinds of bad people. |||||||策略||||||||| С7: В дальнейшем он использовал эту тактику против похитителей и террористов, всех видов плохих людей. You remember there was this one particularly tense negotiation, a phone call which involved some bank robbers and a getaway van. |||||||||||||||||||escape vehicle| Вы помните, были одни особенно напряженные переговоры, телефонный звонок, в котором участвовали несколько грабителей банков и фургон для побега.

S9: I said, you know, we we got a van out here. С9: Я сказал, что у нас есть фургон. We've been able to identify all of the owners of the vans except this one. |||||||||||delivery vehicles||| Нам удалось установить личности всех владельцев фургонов, кроме этого. And he said, we only have one van. И он сказал, что у нас только один фургон. I don’t know what to say, I mean, like what? Я не знаю, что сказать, в смысле, что? So my training is to repeat the last couple of words when I'm flummoxed because I don't know what else to say. |||||||||||||困惑不解|||||||| |||||||||||||confused or perplexed|||||||| Поэтому я тренируюсь повторять последние пару слов, когда я в замешательстве, потому что не знаю, что еще сказать.

S4: There's a name for this. С4: Этому есть название. It's the mirroring technique. É a técnica do espelho. Это техника зеркального отражения.

S9: I say so you only have van? S9: Я говорю, у вас есть только фургон? And he goes, yeah, well, we got more than one van. И он говорит: да, ну, у нас больше одного фургона. I said you have more than one van? Я сказал, что у вас больше одного фургона? He said, well, you chased my driver away. Ele disse: "Bem, tu afugentaste o meu motorista. Он сказал: "Ну, вы прогнали моего водителя". I said, we chased your driver away? Я спрашиваю, мы прогнали вашего водителя? He said, yeah, well, you saw the police, you cut and run. Ele disse, sim, bem, viste a polícia, fugiste e fugiste. Он сказал: "Ну да, вы увидели полицию, вы вырвались и убежали". Now, what he just did was tell us that there was a third accomplice who was the getaway driver, and we had no clue that there was a third accomplice. |||||||||||||同谋者|||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||partner in crime|||||||||||||||| Он только что сказал нам, что был третий сообщник, который был водителем-беглецом, а мы и понятия не имели, что был третий сообщник. Now, this was a guy who was watching everything he said. The mirror caused him to connect thoughts and to keep talking and then to share information that he had no intention of sharing with us. Это был парень, который следил за тем, что говорит. Зеркало заставляло его соединять мысли, продолжать говорить, а затем делиться информацией, которой он не собирался делиться с нами. It caused us to catch up to the third bank robber, get a conviction, and then ultimately convict all three of the bank robbers based on the things that were said on the phone, on a line that he knew was being recorded. |||||||||||||定罪||||定罪||||||||||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||find guilty||||||||||||||||||||||||| Благодаря этому нам удалось догнать третьего грабителя банка, добиться обвинительного приговора и в итоге осудить всех троих грабителей на основании того, что они говорили по телефону, по линии, которая, как он знал, записывалась.

S2: This is how negotiations often occur, says Chris, you don’t know exactly what’s going on all the time, but as long as you have a plan in mind, you can figure out how to muddle through until you learn what you need to know. |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||应付过去||||||||| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||get by||||||||| S2: É assim que as negociações ocorrem frequentemente, diz Chris, não se sabe exatamente o que se passa a todo o momento, mas desde que se tenha um plano em mente, é possível descobrir como se pode fazer até aprender o que é preciso saber. S2: Именно так часто происходят переговоры, говорит Крис: вы не всегда точно знаете, что происходит, но если у вас есть план, вы можете придумать, как пробраться через все это, пока не узнаете то, что вам нужно.

S6: Now, from Shane's perspective, he thinks he that he can be understanding or he can assert. He is conflict-avoidant. ||||||||||||||||断言||||回避冲突的 ||||||||||||||||||||avoids conflict S6: Agora, na perspetiva do Shane, ele pensa que pode ser compreensivo ou pode afirmar-se. Ele evita conflitos. С6: С точки зрения Шейна, он думает, что может быть понимающим или утверждающим. Он избегает конфликтов. There's nothing wrong with that. В этом нет ничего плохого. Everybody assumes that to be assertive, you've got to be rough about it. ||||||||||粗暴|| Все считают, что для того, чтобы быть напористым, нужно быть грубым. You've got to be attacking. Вы должны атаковать. You've got to call the other person names. Вы должны называть другого человека по имени. You know, I'll I'll evoke a couple of poster children for negotiation styles. ||||唤起||||代言人|||| ||||bring up|||||||| Знаете, я приведу пару примеров стилей ведения переговоров.

S4: Donald Trump. The president of the United States calls the shots. S4: Donald Trump. O presidente dos Estados Unidos dá as ordens. S4: Дональд Трамп. Президент Соединенных Штатов Америки делает выстрелы.

S9: He's the poster child for negotiations that it's attacking, calling people names. С9: Он - образец того, что переговоры - это нападение, обзывание людей.

S2: Well, I have the ultimate authority. С2: Ну, я обладаю высшей властью.

S6: The president... Beating the other side into submission. ||||||||屈服 S6: Президент... Избиение другой стороны до покорности. That's what assertion is. Вот что такое утверждение. Well, let's contrast it with Oprah Winfrey. Давайте сравним ее с Опрой Уинфри. I know you all are feeling it to America. Я знаю, что вы все чувствуете себя в Америке. People are so rude these days, aren't they? Люди так грубы в наши дни, не так ли? Now, people don't see Oprah as assertive. ||||||强势 Теперь люди не считают Опру напористой. I would ask you, globally, who is notable for having gotten into an argument with Oprah. |||||||著名的|||||||| Я хотел бы спросить вас, глобально, кто известен тем, что вступил в спор с Опрой. I can't think of anyone. Я не могу вспомнить никого.

S4: It's like asking like like who's who's been in a fight with Bambi, like it doesn't happen. |||||||||||||小鹿斑比|||| |||||||||||||innocent character|||| С4: Это все равно что спрашивать, кто из нас подрался с Бэмби, как будто такого не бывает.

S6: And how many Hollywood celebrities has Oprah had a tiff with? |||||||奥普拉|||争执| S6: E com quantas celebridades de Hollywood é que a Oprah já teve um arrufo? S6: А со сколькими голливудскими знаменитостями Опра уже успела поссориться? I'm here to tell you, I know of quite a few. Я хочу сказать вам, что знаю немало таких. Why don't they spill out into the open? |||流露出来|||| Porque é que não se espalham para o exterior? Почему бы им не выйти на улицу? Because she is emotional intelligence. Потому что она - эмоциональный интеллект. She's relationship focused and assertion focused. Она ориентирована на отношения и на утверждение. Empathy has become synonymous with sympathy. 同情心|||同义的||同情心 Эмпатия стала синонимом сочувствия. And it is not it was never meant that way, ever. ||||||||那|| E não é, nunca foi feito dessa forma, nunca. И это не так, это никогда не было так задумано, никогда. Empathy is understanding. Эмпатия - это понимание. It's been able to fully articulate a complete demonstration of understanding. |||||清楚表达|||演示|| Она смогла полностью выразить полное понимание. When you can cross that, you go from being Donald Trump to being Oprah Winfrey. Quando se consegue ultrapassar isso, passa-se de Donald Trump a Oprah Winfrey. Когда вы сможете преодолеть этот рубеж, вы превратитесь из Дональда Трампа в Опру Уинфри. It's astonishing what you can get people to collaborate with you on once they know that you know where they're coming from. |令人惊讶|||||||合作||||||||||||| É espantoso o que se consegue fazer com que as pessoas colaborem connosco quando sabem que sabemos de onde vêm.

S2: So empathy can be a powerful negotiating tool, but you need to have a plan for how you use it to help you. S2: Итак, эмпатия может быть мощным инструментом переговоров, но у вас должен быть план, как использовать ее, чтобы помочь вам. Take, for instance, this one experience Shane had where his empathy initially put him at a disadvantage. Вот, например, один опыт Шейна, когда его эмпатия изначально поставила его в невыгодное положение. It was a couple of years ago when his family decided to break a lease so they could move to a bigger house. ||||||||||||||租约|||||||| Foi há alguns anos que a sua família decidiu rescindir um contrato de arrendamento para poderem mudar para uma casa maior. Пару лет назад его семья решила расторгнуть договор аренды, чтобы переехать в более просторный дом.

S1: And my landlord was very like accusatory, like, how could you do this to me? |||||||指责的|||||||| |||||||blaming or critical|||||||| S1: И мой домовладелец был очень похож на обвинителя, типа, как ты мог так поступить со мной? I thought you were going to rent through February. Я думал, вы собираетесь снимать квартиру до февраля. You know, I have a kid and and we had felt really bad. Знаете, у меня есть ребенок, и нам было очень плохо. And and she said, you know, per the terms of the lease, I'm going to need you to pay through the end of November and I'm going to keep one hundred percent of your deposit. ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||押金 И она сказала, что, согласно условиям аренды, вы должны платить до конца ноября, а я оставлю себе сто процентов вашего депозита. She acted like we were putting her in a bad spot and that it was going to be a long time to rent. Она вела себя так, будто мы ставим ее в затруднительное положение и что аренда займет много времени. And so we kind of let it go. И мы оставили все как есть. We didn't make a big deal. Мы не стали делать из мухи слона. We agreed to this arrangement that was, you know, we thought was helping her out. Мы согласились на это соглашение, которое, как нам казалось, должно было помочь ей. And then I went back there. А потом я вернулся туда. It was like four days after we moved out, I went back there to just pick up some tools. Прошло около четырех дней после нашего переезда, и я вернулся туда, чтобы забрать кое-какие инструменты. I left in the yard and somebody else was already living there. Я вышел во двор, а там уже жил кто-то другой. And I talked to them about it. И я поговорил с ними об этом. And they have been lined up for like almost as soon as we gave notice. ||||||||||||||通知 E eles têm estado a fazer fila quase desde o momento em que os avisámos. И они выстроились в очередь почти сразу после того, как мы сообщили об этом. So, you know, I was mad. Так что, знаете, я был в бешенстве. And so I went back to my landlord and I was like, listen, you made this impression that I was taking advantage of you and come to find out you've taken advantage of us. Por isso, voltei a falar com o meu senhorio e disse-lhe: "Oiça, deu-me a impressão de que eu me estava a aproveitar de si e, ao que parece, aproveitou-se de nós. Я вернулся к хозяину и сказал: "Послушайте, у вас сложилось впечатление, что я вами пользуюсь, а оказалось, что вы пользуетесь нами". When you called her up and you sort of unloaded on her that way, what did she say in response? |||||||||倾诉|||||||||| Когда вы позвонили ей и как бы разрядили обстановку, что она ответила? So she reiterated her initial stance like, I'm on the hook for these properties if they don't get rented. ||repeated firmly|||||||||||||||| Por isso, reiterou a sua posição inicial: "Se os imóveis não forem arrendados, eu é que pago. Поэтому она повторила свою первоначальную позицию: "Я на крючке за эти объекты, если они не будут сданы в аренду". And like, any time that I tried to say, OK, you have a renter now you can give us our money back, she just kept reiterating like I have a family to provide for. |||||||||||||||||||||||||重申|||||||| |||||||||||||||||||||||||repeating, emphasizing|||||||| И каждый раз, когда я пытался сказать: "Хорошо, у вас есть арендатор, теперь вы можете вернуть нам деньги", она повторяла, что у меня есть семья, которую я должен обеспечивать. And I think that she was probably just, you know, playing on my guilt for feeling bad about breaking the lease. E acho que ela estava provavelmente a brincar com a minha culpa por me sentir mal por ter quebrado o contrato de arrendamento. И я думаю, что она, скорее всего, просто играла на моем чувстве вины за то, что я не могу расторгнуть договор аренды. And it basically worked like we could have gone to court over it. И все получилось так, как будто мы могли бы обратиться в суд по этому поводу. And I just felt like, you know, just paying the money and walking away was a better option. E senti que pagar o dinheiro e ir-me embora era uma opção melhor. И мне показалось, что заплатить деньги и уйти - лучший вариант.

S7: Shane's empathy didn't help him in that situation. S7: Эмпатия Шейна не помогла ему в той ситуации. In fact, it hurt him, but that doesn't mean he should extinguish that empathy. |||||||||||抹去|| |||||||||||suppress|| На самом деле, это причиняет ему боль, но это не значит, что он должен уничтожить в себе сочувствие. It just means he needs to learn to use it differently. Это значит, что ему нужно научиться использовать его по-другому. And that's actually our first rule. И это наше первое правило. Recognize that emotional intelligence, things like empathy, can actually be really powerful tools when you're negotiating. Признайте, что эмоциональный интеллект, такие вещи, как эмпатия, могут быть действительно мощными инструментами при ведении переговоров. Because when you voice your empathy, when you show someone that you understand their problems, you disarm them and you make them more willing to cooperate. ||||||||||||||||消除敌意||||||||| Потому что когда вы выражаете свое сочувствие, когда вы показываете кому-то, что понимаете его проблемы, вы обезоруживаете его и заставляете его охотнее сотрудничать. Basically, you achieve the trust you need to have a productive conversation. In one of the best ways to show empathy, says Chris, is to start a sentence with the words you believe or you feel and then say what you think the other person is thinking or feeling and then just shut up. ||||||||||||||||||||共情||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| По сути, вы добиваетесь доверия, необходимого для продуктивного разговора. Один из лучших способов проявить эмпатию, говорит Крис, - это начать предложение со слов "вы верите" или "вы чувствуете", а затем сказать, что, по вашему мнению, думает или чувствует другой человек, а потом просто замолчать. Avoid the temptation to say more and force them to fill the silence. ||诱惑|||||||||| Избегайте искушения сказать больше и заставить их заполнить тишину.

S6: All right. So what was your landlord's perspective on the whole thing? ||||||||看法|||| |||||||property owner's||||| S6: Muito bem. Então, qual era a perspetiva do seu senhorio em relação a tudo isto? С6: Хорошо. И какова была точка зрения вашего домовладельца на все это?

S1: Start out with you feel you feel like we're leaving you in a bad spot because it's not a good rental season and nobody's really moving. S1: Começamos por dizer que sente que o estamos a deixar numa situação difícil porque não é uma boa época de aluguer e ninguém se está a mexer. S1: Начнем с того, что вы чувствуете, что мы оставляем вас в плохом положении, потому что сейчас не самый удачный сезон для аренды и никто особо не двигается. And you're afraid to mark the apartment's going to be vacant for a month or two before you can get a renter. ||||||公寓的||||||||或||||||| ||||||||||unoccupied||||||||||| E tem medo de marcar que o apartamento vai ficar vago durante um mês ou dois antes de conseguir arranjar um inquilino. И вы боитесь, что квартира будет пустовать месяц или два, прежде чем вы сможете найти арендатора. Perfect.

S6: Now, if you would have said that, what's your fear of the position that it would leave you in. S6: Agora, se tivesse dito isso, qual é o seu receio quanto à posição em que isso o deixaria? С6: А если бы вы сказали это, то чего вы опасаетесь, в каком положении вы окажетесь.

S1: Exposed to be on the hook for this amount that I, you know, I felt was unjustly owed. ||||承担|||||||||||||不公正地|欠的 |||||||||||||||||wrongly| S1: Exposta a ter de pagar uma quantia que eu, sabe, achava que me era devida injustamente. S1: Оказаться на крючке из-за суммы, которую я, знаете ли, считал несправедливо причитающейся мне.

S6: Right. And that's until we learn how this works. И это до тех пор, пока мы не узнаем, как это работает. That's what we feel the real dilemma is. We feel like if we demonstrate understanding we're exposed. ||||||困境|||||||展示理解||| Вот в чем, на наш взгляд, заключается настоящая дилемма. Нам кажется, что если мы продемонстрируем понимание, то окажемся незащищенными.

S7: Chris says this feeling is totally natural. S7: Крис говорит, что это чувство абсолютно естественно. All of us have a part of our brain called the amygdala, which exists to alert us to vulnerabilities and to make us cautious. |||||||||||杏仁体|||||||||||| У каждого из нас есть часть мозга, называемая миндалиной, которая существует для того, чтобы предупреждать нас об уязвимости и заставлять быть осторожными. But sometimes it can lead us astray. ||||||误入歧途 ||||||off course Но иногда это может сбить нас с пути.

S6: The amygdala is wired to be seventy five percent negative, so your survival mode is wired to always overreact negatively to everything you're faced with until you learn the difference between survival and success. ||杏仁核|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| S6: A amígdala está programada para ser setenta e cinco por cento negativa, por isso o teu modo de sobrevivência está programado para reagir sempre de forma negativa a tudo o que te acontece até aprenderes a diferença entre sobrevivência e sucesso. S6: Миндалина настроена на семьдесят пять процентов негатива, поэтому ваш режим выживания настроен на то, чтобы всегда негативно реагировать на все, с чем вы сталкиваетесь, пока вы не поймете разницу между выживанием и успехом. And we're not wired for success as human beings. А мы, как люди, не приспособлены к успеху. We're wired to survive. |天生注定|| Мы созданы для того, чтобы выживать. And that's why, having not gone down this path before, your initial instinct, which is actually your caveman wiring, is like, I'm exposed, I'm going to have to give it. ||||||||||||本能反应|||||原始本能|本能反应||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||primitive survival instinct|||||||||||| E é por isso que, não tendo percorrido este caminho antes, o seu instinto inicial, que é na verdade a sua ligação ao homem das cavernas, é do tipo, estou exposto, vou ter de o dar. И поэтому, не пройдя по этому пути раньше, ваш первоначальный инстинкт, который на самом деле является вашей пещерной проводкой, говорит: "Я разоблачен, мне придется отдать это".

S1: What I often do is I wargame the whole conversation in my head before I even open my mouth. |||||||推演对话|||||||||||| |||||||simulate a conversation|||||||||||| С1: Я часто делаю так: прокручиваю в голове весь разговор еще до того, как открою рот. And I've got this, like, weird strategy, like, OK, they say this, I'll say this, blah, blah, blah. И у меня есть такая странная стратегия: "Ладно, они говорят это, я скажу это, бла-бла-бла". And that just knocks all that off the table and it'll just take a beat and annunciate to them clearly that you understand what their motivation is and then shut up and and even just rethinking some of my problems and stating them like that, it takes away the whole stress of like negotiating and coming up with rebuttals. ||||||||||||||||清楚表达||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||反驳意见 ||||||||||||||||clearly communicate to||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||counterarguments or responses E isso faz com que tudo isso seja eliminado da mesa e é só dar um passo e dizer-lhes claramente que percebemos qual é a motivação deles e depois calamo-nos e, mesmo repensando alguns dos meus problemas e expondo-os dessa forma, elimina todo o stress de negociar e apresentar refutações. И это просто выбивает все из колеи, и нужно просто сделать шаг и четко объяснить им, что вы понимаете их мотивацию, а затем заткнуться, и даже просто переосмыслить некоторые из моих проблем и изложить их таким образом, это снимает весь стресс от переговоров и придумывания опровержений.

S6: You said it takes away the stress, tactical empathy. ||||||||战术同理心| S6: Disse que elimina o stress, a empatia tática. С6: Вы сказали, что это снимает стресс, тактическое сопереживание. We call this tactical empathy does more for you than it does for them, and it does a lot for them. Мы называем это тактической эмпатией, которая делает больше для вас, чем для них, и делает очень много для них.

S4: So, Chris, how do we do that? How do we get to that place where we can just say what's in the other person's head, particularly if we're all riled up? ||||||||||||||||||||||激动| ||||||||||||||||||||||agitated or upset| Como é que chegamos a esse ponto em que podemos simplesmente dizer o que está na cabeça da outra pessoa, especialmente se estivermos muito irritados? Как нам достичь того состояния, когда мы можем просто сказать то, что у другого человека на уме, особенно если мы на взводе? How do I get to a place where I can say, here's what it seems like is going on for you and then not say anything else? Como é que chego a um ponto em que posso dizer "eis o que parece estar a acontecer contigo" e depois não dizer mais nada? Как мне достичь такого состояния, когда я смогу сказать: "Вот что, похоже, происходит с вами, и больше ничего не говорить"? How do I train myself to do that?

S6: Alright, I'm gonna test your age cuz I'm old and I could answer this question. How do you get to Carnegie Hall? |||||||||||||||||||||卡内基音乐厅| S6: Muito bem, vou testar a tua idade, porque sou velho e podia responder a esta pergunta. Como é que se chega ao Carnegie Hall? S6: Хорошо, я проверю ваш возраст, потому что я старый и могу ответить на этот вопрос. Как попасть в Карнеги-холл?

S4: It's not the right on 42nd. S4: Это не справа на 42-й. It's practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice. There you go. Exactly.

S6: A lot of people like I asked somebody that the other day and they're like, what are you to I got to Google that to figure that out. S6: Многие люди, например, я спросил об этом кого-то на днях, и они ответили: "Что ты такое, мне нужно погуглить, чтобы это выяснить". You know, it's always small stakes practice. Знаете, это всегда небольшие ставки. You know, and we got people around us all the time, you know, you lift driver, anybody, you get on the phone with them and really we got no skin in the game because you you're not going to deploy a new technique in something as important as an interaction with a landlord if you haven't tried it out on the people in your everyday life, just to see what the reaction is. ||||||||||||||司机|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||互动||||||||||||||||||||||| Temos pessoas à nossa volta a toda a hora, motoristas, qualquer pessoa, falamos ao telefone com eles e, na verdade, não temos nada a ver com o jogo, porque não vamos utilizar uma nova técnica em algo tão importante como uma interação com um senhorio se não a tivermos experimentado com as pessoas da nossa vida quotidiana, só para ver qual é a reação. Вокруг нас постоянно есть люди, вы знаете, вы поднимаете водителя, кого угодно, разговариваете с ними по телефону, и на самом деле у нас нет никакой кожи в игре, потому что вы не собираетесь применять новую технику в таком важном деле, как взаимодействие с арендодателем, если вы не опробовали ее на людях в своей повседневной жизни, просто чтобы посмотреть, какова будет реакция.

S4: Let's say I've been practicing. S4: Допустим, я тренировался. Let's say let's say I've been practicing with my wife. My kids have been practicing with the the grocery, you know, checkout person. |||||||||||收银员| Мои дети практиковались в общении с продавцами в бакалее. I've I've gotten good at saying what's going on in their head and then just shutting up. Я научился хорошо говорить, что происходит у них в голове, а потом просто замолкать. And 50 percent of the time that's going to work. И в 50 процентах случаев это сработает. But what about the other 50 percent? Но как быть с остальными 50 процентами? Let's say I do that with a landlord. Right. Допустим, я сделаю это с арендодателем. Верно. Landlord says, thank you so much. You're exactly right. Хозяин дома говорит: "Большое спасибо. Вы совершенно правы. And that's why I want you to pay all the money that I think you owe me and a little bit more. What do I do next? |||||||||||||||欠||||||||||| И поэтому я хочу, чтобы вы заплатили все деньги, которые, как мне кажется, вы мне должны, и даже немного больше. Что мне делать дальше?

S6: Now, if you fully empathize, demonstrate understanding with somebody and they still come back at you hard, you now just found out that this person is never going to make a favorable deal with me. ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||有利的||| |||||understand deeply|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| S6: Agora, se tivermos empatia e demonstrarmos compreensão com alguém e essa pessoa nos responder com dureza, acabámos de descobrir que essa pessoa nunca vai fazer um acordo favorável comigo. S6: Если вы полностью сопереживаете, демонстрируете понимание кому-то, а он все равно жестко отвечает вам, вы только что узнали, что этот человек никогда не заключит со мной выгодную сделку.

S10: Happens all the time. S10: Такое случается постоянно. So more than likely, you finish, you get it. Так что, скорее всего, вы закончите и получите его. That's right. And they don't say another word. И больше они не произносят ни слова. Now, how do we keep this back into gear? Agora, como é que vamos manter isto de novo na ordem? Как же нам вернуть все на круги своя? The secret to gaining the upper hand in negotiations, given the other side, the illusion of control. Секрет достижения превосходства в переговорах заключается в том, чтобы дать другой стороне иллюзию контроля. The first thing you want to do is say, how do you want to proceed, having given them the illusion of control. I now need to know, are they on the verge of offering me something that I like? |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||边缘||||||| Первое, что вы хотите сделать, - это сказать, как вы хотите действовать дальше, дав им иллюзию контроля. Теперь мне нужно знать, находятся ли они на грани того, чтобы предложить мне что-то, что мне понравится?

S6: I got to give him a chance to do that without making him feel backed into a corner. S6: Tenho de lhe dar uma oportunidade de o fazer sem o fazer sentir-se encurralado. С6: Я должен дать ему шанс сделать это, не заставляя его чувствовать себя загнанным в угол. So I'm going to my first move is going to be a how question. Поэтому первым моим шагом будет вопрос "как". They got no answer, my next move after that is a no oriented question. ||||||||||||以否为导向| Они не получили ответа, и мой следующий шаг после этого - вопрос без ориентации. Is it ridiculous for me to offer something that would work for me? Не смешно ли мне предлагать то, что подойдет именно мне? What's the answer to that? Каков ответ на этот вопрос? They're going to say no, but again, people feel safe and protected when they say no. Они скажут "нет", но, опять же, люди чувствуют себя в безопасности и защищены, когда говорят "нет". I'm continuing to shave the odds in my favor. |||削减||几率||| Continuo a reduzir as probabilidades a meu favor. Я продолжаю уменьшать шансы в свою пользу. These are my last ditch efforts at making a collaborative deal. ||||最后努力|||||| ||||final desperate attempt|||||| Это моя последняя попытка заключить совместную сделку.

S4: So I, I want them to say no, because that's the way I always come into this is I think like I want them to be agreeable. С4: Так что я хочу, чтобы они сказали "нет", потому что я всегда так к этому подхожу - думаю, что хочу, чтобы они были сговорчивыми. I want to find something we can agree on some common ground. Я хочу найти что-то общее, о чем мы могли бы договориться. Right. But you're saying no, don't go for the question that gets a yes. Но если вы говорите "нет", не идите на вопрос, на который ответят "да".

S6: Go for the question that gets a no. The last person that talked you into something that you regretted. S6: Идите на вопрос, на который ответят "нет". Последний человек, который уговорил вас на что-то, о чем вы потом пожалели. They got you to say yes a whole bunch of times. ||||||||很多次|| Они заставили вас сказать "да" целую кучу раз. What did that do to you made you leery of anybody trying to get you to say yes. ||||||||警惕的||||||||| |||||||made you cautious|suspicious or cautious||||||||| Что это сделало с вами, заставило вас с опаской относиться к любым попыткам заставить вас сказать "да".

S4: So I want to ask a question that they're going to say no too. С4: Поэтому я хочу задать вопрос, на который они ответят "нет". And is that because it makes them feel like they're in control? И это потому, что так они чувствуют себя хозяевами положения? Absolutely.

S7: So this is our next rule. 所以|||||| Give the other party the illusion of control by asking how do you want to proceed and then ask them a question that they can say no too. Создайте у собеседника иллюзию контроля, спросив, как вы хотите действовать, а затем задайте ему вопрос, на который он может ответить "нет". No one likes feeling coerced into saying yes. ||||被迫的||| ||||forced or pressured||| Никому не нравится чувствовать себя вынужденным сказать "да". So give the other person a chance to tell you no. Дайте собеседнику шанс сказать вам "нет".

S2: When we come back, Chris will share a few more tactics with us, including his amazing method to get a free upgrade every time he checks into a hotel. S2: Когда мы вернемся, Крис поделится с нами еще несколькими тактиками, включая его удивительный метод получения бесплатного повышения класса обслуживания каждый раз, когда он регистрируется в отеле.

S8: Stay with us.

S2: If you like this episode, you should check out another one called How to Convince People to Give You Money, which features expert tips from a kind of unlikely source con artists. |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||骗子| You can find it in all of our episodes by subscribing for free to our podcast feed.

S7: We're back with Shane and our expert, Chris Voss, author of the book Never Split the Difference Negotiating As If Your Life Depended on It. S7: С нами снова Шейн и наш эксперт Крис Восс, автор книги Never Split the Difference Negotiating As If Your Life Depended on It.

S10: I got to tell you something.

S6: Every time we check into a hotel, we get stuff for free. Yeah. Every time. S6: Каждый раз, когда мы заселяемся в отель, мы получаем вещи бесплатно. Да. Каждый раз. And, you know, and and this is this is our practice is how we deal with our hotel. И, знаете, это наша практика - то, как мы работаем с нашим отелем. I walk up and I say, I'm getting ready to make your day ridiculously painful. Я подхожу и говорю: "Я готовлюсь сделать ваш день до смешного болезненным". And then I watch him just fall, because if they worked in a hotel, they got no idea. А потом я смотрю, как он просто падает, потому что если они работают в отеле, то понятия не имеют. You know, you know, you got you got eight heads in a duffel bag. ||||||||||||行李袋| ||||||||||||large travel bag| Знаете, у вас восемь голов в вещевом мешке. They don't know what the hell are you doing? Они не понимают, что, черт возьми, вы делаете? You know, you got you've got a goat in the bag. Вы знаете, у вас есть козел в мешке. You're going to do a ritual sacrifice up in a room. |||||仪式牺牲||||| Вы собираетесь совершить ритуальное жертвоприношение в комнате. They've seen everything, right? Они видели все, верно? So then I say I'm getting ready to sound like a self-centered, self-involved hotel guest. И тогда я говорю, что готовлюсь говорить, как эгоцентричный, зацикленный на себе постоялец отеля. They want something for nothing. Они хотят получить что-то просто так. And now now they're like, because I'm stripping away by calling out the negatives, by calling out the potential elephants in the room, I'm getting rid of them one at a time. E agora, porque eu estou a despir-me, chamando a atenção para os aspectos negativos, chamando a atenção para os potenciais elefantes na sala, estou a livrar-me deles um de cada vez. И теперь они думают, что, поскольку я избавляюсь от негатива, называя потенциальных слонов в комнате, я избавляюсь от них по одному. Now they're looking at me in a completely different way. That automatically inoculates me from that perception. Their their reaction to that is, boy, this guy understands the kind of nonsense I'm trying to deal with. ||||||||||||免疫||||看法||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||protects against||||||||||||||||||||||| Теперь они смотрят на меня совершенно по-другому. Это автоматически избавляет меня от такого восприятия. Их реакция на это такова: "Боже, этот парень понимает, с какой ерундой я пытаюсь справиться". And the last thing I say is how much trouble do I get you in for trying to get an upgrade to a suite for free? И последнее, что я скажу, - сколько неприятностей вам грозит за попытку бесплатно получить повышение класса до люкса?

S11: We get suites every time. This is what about how about a downtown view, I can move you into a downtown view. Now he's killing himself. Wow.

S1: Shane, let me ask you, have have you ever tried anything like that?

S6: So my my now wife, we met at a karaoke night and, you know, I had a little bit of liquid courage and we had been hanging out and I said, so how how cliche would it be if I kissed you right now? Instead of answering she kissed me. And it was like totally worked. ||||||||||||||||||||||酒后勇气|||||||||||||老套||||||||||||||||||||| Look at you, man. Look at you. You get this in. You saw you know, you get to know how to use your powers for for for more good.

S4: Shane, when you think about the conversation with the landlord. And, you know, Chris had talked about giving giving the other person the illusion of control, asking a how question, putting them in a position where they can say no, what question do you think you could have asked your landlord after you had made this expression of empathy that would have put them in a position where where they have the illusion of control and are more willing to work with you.

S6: You know, I was thinking and and maybe this gives them too much control, but I was thinking, you know, how do we come to a solution here that we can both be happy with? I like that a lot. I here's how I change the tail end of that. Eis como altero o fim dessa situação. How do we come to a solution here that we both don't end up hating each other after this is all over? ||||||||||||||讨厌|||||||

S4: That's interesting. What's the difference there? Like, why why that why that ending?

S6: Well, when you say that we can both be happy with, my reaction is like you're only interested in your happiness. S6: Когда ты говоришь, что мы оба можем быть счастливы, я реагирую так, как будто тебя интересует только твое счастье. You could care less if you're happy about me. Тебе все равно, радуешься ли ты мне. So the prospect of hating someone over a bad deal has happened enough to people, and that was my hotel clerk question, how do I get an upgrade out of you without making everybody else mad at you? ||前景||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Так что перспектива возненавидеть кого-то за плохую сделку случалась с людьми достаточно часто, и это был мой вопрос к служащему отеля: как мне добиться от вас повышения класса, не разозлив при этом всех остальных? You consider the negative and chose a path to avoid the negative. Вы рассматриваете негатив и выбираете путь, чтобы избежать его. That's interesting. So it's the evoking the negative and letting people resolve it in their minds before they move forward has a higher success rate than dangling the positive. ||||||||||||||||||||||||||悬而未决|| Это интересно. Получается, что вызывание негатива и предоставление людям возможности разрешить его в своем сознании, прежде чем они двинутся вперед, имеет больший процент успеха, чем навязывание позитива. Because everybody dangles a positive, it's a lure. ||诱惑|||||诱饵 ||offers temptingly||||| Потому что все болтают о позитиве, это приманка.

S2: And this is our next rule, acknowledge the negative, mention it, highlight the negative consequences that everyone wants to avoid. S2: И это наше следующее правило: признавайте негатив, упоминайте его, выделяйте негативные последствия, которых все хотят избежать. In other words, you should go ahead and state the obvious. Другими словами, вы должны идти напролом и констатировать очевидное. We both want to avoid bad feelings. Мы оба хотим избежать неприятных ощущений. So rather than pretending that they don't exist, let's acknowledge the things could get bad. Поэтому, вместо того чтобы делать вид, что их не существует, давайте признаем, что ситуация может ухудшиться. And then we agree. И тогда мы соглашаемся. No one wants that.

S9: You don't get rid of the elephant in a room by ignoring it, but if you say, look, there's an elephant in the room, here's the elephant. С9: Вы не избавитесь от слона в комнате, игнорируя его, но если вы скажете: "Смотрите, в комнате есть слон, вот он". Look at it, look at it right there. Посмотрите на него, посмотрите на него прямо здесь.

S11: People's reactions to it are like, oh, yeah, but that's not that big a deal. S11: Люди реагируют на это так: "О, да, но это не так уж и важно".

S6: And that's what, you know, bring people's attention to the negatives fearlessly instead of denying that they're there. ||||||||||||无所畏惧地|||否认||| S6: И это то, что нужно, чтобы привлечь внимание людей к негативу, а не отрицать, что он есть. I don't want you to think I'm going to be a jerk. Я не хочу, чтобы вы думали, что я буду придурком. You say I'm probably going to look like a jerk. Вы говорите, что я, вероятно, буду выглядеть как придурок. That two mm shit is massive in its impact to your advantage. Эта двухмиллиметровая хреновина имеет огромное значение для вашего преимущества. Now you're getting smarter. Теперь ты становишься умнее. You're gaining more of a feel for it, and you're beginning to understand, like, you know, if I smile at him and say three things in a row with a big smile on my face, I will watch them change every time my smile impacts. Вы все лучше чувствуете его и начинаете понимать, что если я улыбнусь ему и скажу три фразы подряд с широкой улыбкой на лице, то буду наблюдать, как они меняются с каждым разом, когда моя улыбка меняется. That's pretty cool. Now, now you got more data to recalibrate your approach. |||||||重新调整|| Теперь у вас есть больше данных, чтобы пересмотреть свой подход.

S4: OK, so let's say let's say we're in this situation. S4: Хорошо, допустим, мы оказались в такой ситуации. We've gone in we've we followed your playbook. Мы пошли по вашему сценарию. What usually happens next? Что обычно происходит дальше? Like like what's happening in the negotiation at that point and what's our next move? Например, что происходит на переговорах в этот момент и каков наш следующий шаг?

S6: Yeah, well, I mean, I've already asked for permission if I've demonstrated empathy, I got nothing. С6: Да, ну, я имею в виду, что я уже спрашивал разрешения, если я проявил эмпатию, я ничего не получил. Let's say I've asked the illusion of control how question. I got nothing. I asked no oriented question. ||||||||||||||||导向的| Допустим, я задал вопрос об иллюзии контроля. Я ничего не получил. Я задал не ориентированный вопрос. I got nothing. У меня ничего нет. There's nothing left. Ничего не осталось. That's it. Вот и все. Yeah, you know, you you you walk, you make the deal, you you you have the snipers shoot them, you know, you know, you're not going to make every deal. ||||||||||||||||狙击手||||||||||||| Да, вы знаете, вы ходите, вы заключаете сделку, вы заставляете снайперов стрелять в них, вы знаете, вы знаете, вы знаете, вы не собираетесь заключать каждую сделку.

S7: Which brings us to our final rule. S7: Что приводит нас к последнему правилу. In order to get what you want, you might have to experiment and try tactics that are outside of your comfort zone. ||||||||||||||策略||||||| Чтобы добиться желаемого, вам, возможно, придется поэкспериментировать и попробовать тактику, выходящую за рамки вашей зоны комфорта. And and that might feel awkward, particularly at first. ||||||尤其是|| И это может показаться неловким, особенно поначалу. But if you practice it, say, in low stakes situations and you try different approaches, it'll over time become more and more natural. Но если вы будете практиковаться, скажем, в ситуациях с низкими ставками и пробовать разные подходы, то со временем это будет становиться все более и более естественным. It's the same way you get to Carnegie Hall. |||||||卡内基音乐厅| Это тот же путь, которым вы добираетесь до Карнеги-холла.

S6: I mean, how did you learn to be a bomb tech? С6: Как ты научился быть сапером? Did you go out and start wiring up C4 right away? Começou logo a instalar os cabos do C4? Вы сразу же начали подключать C4? Well, you're right. Что ж, вы правы.

S1: We we spent a lot of time putting fake blasting caps and a fake C4 before, you know, we went out and did a ... ||||||||||爆破装置|||||||||||||| S1: Passámos muito tempo a colocar cápsulas de detonação falsas e um C4 falso antes de, sabe, sairmos e fazermos uma ... S1: Мы потратили много времени на установку фальшивых капсюлей и фальшивого C4, прежде чем, знаете, мы вышли и сделали ...

S6: Small stakes practice, right? I mean, I'd be scared. S6: Небольшие ставки, верно? Я имею в виду, я бы испугался. And personally, I have dealt with bomb techs when I was an FBI agent. |||||||bomb technicians|||||| И лично я имел дело с саперами, когда работал агентом ФБР. I think you guys are crazy. Я думаю, вы сошли с ума. I like that you guys want to play with explosives because I want to get as far away from them as I can. Мне нравится, что вы, ребята, хотите играть со взрывчаткой, потому что я хочу быть как можно дальше от нее. And you guys go take care of it for me. А вы, ребята, позаботьтесь об этом за меня. You guys you guys are courageous guys, but you got there one step at a time. |||||勇敢的|||||||||| Вы отважные ребята, но вы сделали шаг за шагом. You try. There is no good and bad. Попробуйте. Не существует хорошего и плохого. There's trained and there's untrained. You went and found ways to do small stakes practice. |||||||||||||小赌注| Há os treinados e os não treinados. Encontrou formas de praticar com pequenas apostas. Есть обученные и есть необученные. Вы пошли и нашли способ делать небольшие ставки. You got the movements down same way you get your tone of voice down, same way you get your practice in describing the other person's perspective to them. Вы отработали движения так же, как и интонацию, так же, как и практикуетесь в описании точки зрения другого человека. And how long did it take you to become certified as a bomb tech? Over a year of just straight training. So where would you be a year from now if you got in small stakes practice?

S1: I think that it would be a total change in my demeanor when I approach a conversation. ||||||||||||举止||||| ||||||||||||behavior or attitude|||||

S9: We should last you for the rest of your life. It's a cool thought, isn't it? Absolutely.

S12: Thank you to Shane for sharing your story with us and to Chris Voss for his fantastic advice, if you like what he had to say, you would definitely love his book. Never split the difference. Do you have a problem that needs solving? If you do, you should negotiate with us by sending us a note at howto@slate.com or you can use the hardball tactics and leave a voicemail at six four six four nine five four zero zero one. And if you're successful, we'll have you on the show. Howto's executive producer is Derek John. Rachel Allen is our production assistant and Mayor Jacob is our engineer. Our theme music is by Janice Brown. |||||Janice Brown| June Thomas is the senior managing producer and Alicia Montgomery is the executive producer of Slate podcasts. ||||||||艾丽西亚|||||||| Gabriel Roth is Slate's editorial director of audio. Special thanks to Rosemarie Bellson. |||||||||||a person's name|Person's name I'm Charles Duhigg.

S7: Thanks for listening.