Class 2: The Genesis of Nations (4) Klasse 2: Die Entstehung der Nationen (4) Clase 2: La génesis de las naciones (4) Classe 2 : La genèse des nations (4) クラス2：国家創世記（4） 2 klasė: Tautų genezė (4) Les 2: Het ontstaan van naties (4) Klasa 2: Geneza narodów (4) Aula 2: A génese das nações (4) Занятие 2: Генезис наций (4) Sınıf 2: Ulusların Yaratılışı (4) Заняття 2: Походження націй (4) 第二课：国家的起源（4） 第二課：萬國創世記（四）

of what about the other people?

And then here comes the interesting part.

It's not that nobody noticed this at the time. Ce n'est pas que personne ne l'ait remarqué à l'époque.

The people who came up with the ethnic notion of the nation, Die Leute, die den ethnischen Begriff der Nation erfunden haben, Les gens qui ont inventé la notion ethnique de la nation,

this is a little logical point here, Das ist hier ein kleiner logischer Punkt,

but ethnicity didn't exist, it was being created. aber Ethnizität existierte nicht, sie wurde geschaffen.

So the people who came up Also die Leute, die heraufgekommen sind

with the ethnic notion of the nation

were not ethnic themselves.

They couldn't have been Ils ne pouvaient pas être

because the idea was just kind of coming into being. weil die idee einfach so entstanden ist. parce que l'idée était juste en train de naître. porque a ideia estava a nascer.

And even if you don't buy that and you believe, okay, Und selbst wenn du das nicht kaufst und glaubst, okay, Et même si vous n'achetez pas ça et que vous croyez, d'accord, E mesmo que não acredites nisso e acredites, tudo bem,

there was a thing called ethnicity at the time, Damals gab es so etwas wie Ethnizität, Na altura, havia uma coisa chamada etnia,

they were very often themselves coming from ils venaient très souvent eux-mêmes de muitas vezes eles próprios provinham de

what we would think of as a minority position. was wir unter einer Minderheitsposition verstehen würden. ce que nous considérerions comme une position minoritaire.

So Hrushevs'kyi, Also Hrushevs'kyi,

as the Ukrainian historians might not tell you, comme les historiens ukrainiens pourraient ne pas vous le dire,

had a Polish mom and that is very typical. hatte eine polnische Mutter und das ist sehr typisch. avait une mère polonaise et c'est très typique.

Very typical.

If you look at the people who invented the populism,

the social history,

and sometimes later the ethnic nationalism,

all across Eastern Europe, ganz Osteuropa,

it is very often people who were from a Jewish minority

or a German minority, or some kind of minority

who themselves adopt the ethnic position die selbst die ethnische Position einnehmen

or create the ethnic position.

I say that not because it's like a clever paradox, Je dis ça non pas parce que c'est comme un paradoxe intelligent,

but I say that to alert you to the fact that the very thing aber ich sage das, um Sie auf die Tatsache aufmerksam zu machen, dass genau das

which is supposed to be the most eternal and unchanging qui est censé être le plus éternel et immuable

is not, right?

The very notion of the eternity and the unchangingness, Schon die Vorstellung von der Ewigkeit und der Unveränderlichkeit, La notion même d'éternité et d'immuabilité,

is created by people who are very often

changing themselves in some way.

Not that they dropped all the sophistication Nicht, dass sie all die Raffinesse fallen gelassen hätten Non pas qu'ils aient laissé tomber toute la sophistication

that came from the background that they had. cela venait du milieu qu'ils avaient.

Being multicultural and multilingual

certainly helps you as a historian to write history books.

But they're keeping that Mais ils gardent ça

and they're saying history is really about

the people who are in this one language.

So that leads us to a debate. Cela nous amène donc à un débat.

That's a position, that's a debate.

And on the other side of this debate is a character, Et de l'autre côté de ce débat se trouve un personnage,

Okay, I really should have made a sheet for today, I guess. Bon, j'aurais vraiment dû faire une feuille pour aujourd'hui, je suppose.

Is a character called Viacheslav Lypyn'skyi.

And Lypyn'skyi says basically,

hey, Hrushevs'kyi, look at Ukraine.

The cities are full of Russian speakers,

lots of Jews, lots of Polish nobles. beaucoup de Juifs, beaucoup de nobles polonais.

How are you gonna make your state out of that? Comment allez-vous en faire votre état ?

You're not just gonna be able to say Tu ne vas pas seulement pouvoir dire

the Ukrainian people, the masses and the peasants. le peuple ukrainien, les masses et les paysans.

You need this very commonsensical point. Vous avez besoin de ce point très sensé.

We need the cities and we need the taxpayers Nous avons besoin des villes et nous avons besoin des contribuables

and those traditional historical,

going back to these traditional stories,

the people who are from the traditional stories,

what are we gonna do with them? qu'est-ce qu'on va faire d'eux ?

Are we just gonna eliminate them?

Or maybe we should give them a different role. Ou peut-être devrions-nous leur donner un rôle différent.

So Lypyn'skyi answers Hrushevs'kyi by saying fine,

the people are coming into politics,

but if we're going to have a nation,

the nation itself is going to have to be

politically savvy enough to say, okay, assez avisé politiquement pour dire, d'accord,

there's a place for the Polish nobility.

Maybe they don't get to own the land anymore, Peut-être qu'ils ne sont plus propriétaires de la terre,

but they get something. mais ils obtiennent quelque chose.

There has to be a place for the Jews.

There has to be a place for the people

who used to own the land. qui possédait la terre.

We can't just imagine them away.

It's beautiful to say that the essence of the nation C'est beau de dire que l'essence de la nation

is in the countryside and the people who tilled the soil est à la campagne et les gens qui travaillaient la terre

and look at the sunset and the beautiful mounds of hay. et regardez le coucher de soleil et les beaux monticules de foin.

You've seen the art that arises from all this. Vous avez vu l'art qui découle de tout cela.

Look at that beautiful image.

There's a beautiful woman and there's her beautiful daughter

and look, they've have a scythe et regarde, ils ont une faux

and that's the nation, right?

It's beautiful, it's very persuasive.

But what are you gonna do about

the people who live in the cities?

What do you do about all the other people

and you can't have a nation without the cities.

So what do you do? So Lypyn'skyi has an answer to this.

Lypyn'skyi has an answer.

Lypyn'skyi in his turn, and don't worry, Lypyn'skyi à son tour, et ne vous inquiétez pas,

we're gonna do all this history many, many times over.

Lypyn'skyi in turn--

Oh, did I mention he was from a Polish noble family?

He was from a Polish noble family.

Lypyn'skyi in turn is answered by a guy called Dontsov. Lypyn'skyi est à son tour répondu par un type appelé Dontsov.

Now we're getting into the 1920s and 1930s

and Dontsov is the most important ideologist

of Ukrainian far right wing politics. de la politique d'extrême droite ukrainienne.

In fact, fascism.

And Dontsov is very much inspired by the Italians.

Dontsov says no, no, it is really all about the people

and the people really should be homogenous. et les gens devraient vraiment être homogènes.

And the people really should rebel Et les gens devraient vraiment se rebeller

against all these other traditions.

Dontsov...

I'm gonna let you guess. Okay, I won't let you guess. Je vais vous laisser deviner. Bon, je ne vous laisse pas deviner.

He had a brother who was a Bolshevik

and that Bolshevik brother was a Russian, right?

So it's an example of how the people

who are maybe even the most radical

on the ethnic side of things,

they're not coming from the ethnicity.

They're choosing something, Ils choisissent quelque chose,

at the beginning you have to choose.

Because at the beginning,

the nation is still coming into being, la nation est encore en train de naître,

so you have to choose.

So Dontsov is answering Lypyn'skyi.

These guys are enemies Ces gars sont des ennemis

and the Dontsov tradition of what we call ethnic nationalism

is important.

It matters in Ukrainian political life.

And it matters in Ukrainian diaspora, Et c'est important dans la diaspora ukrainienne,

it continues in North America.

But Dontsov in turn was answered

by this guy that we're supposed to be reading.

Now, I'm aware that his book turns out Ich bin mir bewusst, dass sein Buch sich als Maintenant, je suis conscient que son livre s'avère

not to be in the bookstore.

I put the first essay up online J'ai mis le premier essai en ligne

and we will keep putting the essays up online. et nous continuerons à mettre les essais en ligne.

And we're reading Ivan Rudnyts'kyi

because he is a foundational political historian of Ukraine

and he lays out some of the major issues. et il expose quelques-uns des principaux problèmes.

But in context, Ivan Rudnyts'kyi

is trying to handle this argument essaie de gérer cet argument

which says that the Ukrainian nation

is only about people who speak Ukrainian.

And that somewhere out there, at least aspirationally,

there's a homogenous Ukrainian nation.

Ivan Rudnyts'kyi is trying to handle that. Ivan Rudnyts'kyi essaie de gérer cela.

What he's arguing, and as you read him, Ce qu'il argumente, et pendant que vous le lisez,

I want you to read him

to learn about Ukrainian history, obviously. pour en savoir plus sur l'histoire ukrainienne, évidemment.

He's good at setting up the major questions, Il est doué pour poser les principales questions,

but he's also coming into this debate

about what the nation actually is supposed to be.

And Ivan Rudnyts'kyi takes the position

that the nation is fundamentally a political act.

It's fundamentally about political commitment. C'est fondamentalement une question d'engagement politique.

So modernization matters,

modernization matters, sure. la modernisation compte, bien sûr.

The traditional landowning classes, they matter, sure. Les classes traditionnelles de propriétaires terriens, elles comptent, bien sûr.

The presence of the Jews matters.

This all matters,

but the nation is fundamentally a political act

directed towards the future. tournée vers l'avenir.

That doesn't mean it's voluntarist and you can do anything. Isso não significa que seja voluntarista e que se possa fazer tudo.

You can't make it up. Não se pode inventar.

You can only act on the basis of what really is

and he mostly wrote about the past.

But the nation itself was a political act

directed towards the future,

which means that in principle, anyone can take part in it.

Anyone can take part. Tout le monde peut participer.

So I'm now just gonna say one word

about who Ivan Rudnyts'kyi was.

So, oh, very important.

He wins.

He wins the argument, which is kind of fascinating.

If there's any person who wins the argument, S'il y a quelqu'un qui gagne l'argument,

I mean, maybe in the 22nd century it will look different,

but looking at it from the point of 2022,

he wins the argument in North America

and he also wins the argument in Ukraine.

Although as we'll see, there are many reasons in Ukraine

why his arguments are gonna seem plausible.

But he wins the argument about what Ukraine should be like.

And that in turn has very important implications

for what Ukraine is like,

because theorizing the nation is not an abstract action.

It's also about how you form the nation.

So 30 seconds and I'll tell you who Ivan Rudnyts'kyi is

and we'll return to that.

So Ivan Rudnyts'kyi was Halachically Jewish.

His grandmother was born Ida Spiegel

in the Habsburg monarchy.

She married a Ukrainian and they had five children.

He died early, the husband,

and Ida Spiegel, who was alienated from her family

and took the name Olga, raised the children to be Ukrainian. et a pris le nom d'Olga, a élevé les enfants pour qu'ils soient ukrainiens.

The common language in the family was...

Anybody wanna take a shot at that? Quelqu'un veut essayer ça ? Хтось хоче спробувати?

Common language?

We're in the Habsburg monarchy.

Not bad.

We're in Galicia in the Habsburg monarchy.

- Polish? - Polish.

Polish, Polish. Common language between--

I mean, her mother tongue was Yiddish

and his mother tongue was Ukrainian.

Although he had Polish grandparents,

but their language between themselves was Polish.

The kids' best language for a long time was also Polish.

So there were five kids with this Jewish mother.

All five of them became very important figures

in Ukrainian national movement, we'll talk about that.

But there was one daughter, Milena.

Milena was a feminist and a very prominent parliamentarian

in the Polish parliament.

She did some extraordinary things

that we'll talk about later on,

but Milena Rudnyts'ka was the mother of the Ivan Rudnyts'kyi.

So his mother's mother was self-identifying Jewish. Donc, la mère de sa mère s'identifiait comme juive.

Everybody who's taking part in these conversations,

regardless of their position, quel que soit leur poste,

is coming from all over the place.

But there's a conversation where Rudnyts'kyi

ends up being the most influential figure finit par être la figure la plus influente

and that conversation shapes not only this class, et que la conversation façonne non seulement cette classe,

it very much shapes the way

that Ukrainians are talking about nationality now.

I'll leave you with that je te laisse avec ça

and I'll see you again in a week's time, et je te reverrai dans une semaine,

map quiz on Thursday. jeu-questionnaire sur la carte jeudi. questionário sobre mapas na quinta-feira.

Thanks.

(upbeat rhythmic chime) (carrilhão rítmico)