Learn English LingQ Podcast #39: Writing a Best Selling Novel | with Nazanine Hozar (2)
I mean the, like the first, first one, the very first draft was like over 800 pages.
And then I looked at it, I read it and I cut 500 pages out of that.
Like I just slashed 500 pages out of that.
Then I added, I added another 300 and I cut 200 and then I,
so do you know what I mean?
Those first four drafts were the big, big, big things.
And then after that, the drafts become, then you're like starting
to tweak and you rearranging things.
So, you know, it varies those, those that draft ready.
It's not like you're rewriting the whole thing on the sixth draft.
Right.
Fair enough.
Did it feel, did you know then when the final...
did you know the final draft was the final draft, as soon as it was done, was
it like, ah, you know, close manuscript, smoke a cigar or whatever you do?
The only reason I knew, I didn't really know.
I still don't know.
I still think when I look back at it, I still think I could have done
better and I could have fixed things, but it was my editor by this point.
So I had already gone through the process of like selling
it and having an agent and...
right.
And then the editor said, this is done.
This is done.
And she's very...
You're doine.
Yeah, you're done.
She's very respected intelligent, smart person.
So you...
that's someone that who, who has had several successful books.
So you go, okay, this person's not knows what they're talking about.
I'm just going to trust her.
And, um, and, and Margaret Atwood actually at one point where I kind of
thought it was maybe done, Margaret Atwood kind of said, no, it's not done.
And so I thought, okay, well, if she says, it's not done.
Right.
You gotta keep...
and, and so you, you pay attention to people who know better.
And there are always going to be people who know better.
You never know, you never know more than...
there are people who've been doing this for so long and they have gifts
that you don't have, and they're not as close to the material.
And, um, so you listen to them if you're wise.
That's wise.
Yeah.
I was going to say that's very wise.
So Aria is set in Iran, but primarily Tehran.
I mentioned earlier and you are from Iran, Terran.
Yep.
And you lived there, you were born there and lived there until you were seven?
Seven and some.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so do you remember, of course there was...
I mean, you know, a ton more about it.
So it was the unrest that was the Iran Iraq war.
And then there was unrest politically within Iran while you were right there
for those seven years of your life.
Do you remember any of that?
Yeah.
So there's sort of three unrest situations that took place, um, from my birth on
before there were other things, but from the time I was born, there were three.
One was the revolution,
which I was only about a year old when it happened, so I don't have
memories of it though I'm told that...
I don't know what, what, what anybody, like you're a parent, you know what this
is like, but I don't know what parents would be thinking, taking a one-year-old
out into like demonstrations when there's like bullets flying and like, you know,
but apparently I was taken out into these demonstrations as a one year old.
You know, with like guns ablaze.
So I don't think, you know, we're eighties kids, you know, we,
they did, they just didn't care.
They threw us out into...
um, so I, so I don't have a memory of that, although I'm sure there's
subconsciously stuff going on.
Um, but the, the two other unrest situations was the Iran Iraq war,
which for the first few years, uh, kind of happened at the border
uh, between the two countries.
So it happened in desert areas in, in, um, kind of, uh, yeah, lower area by the
Persian Gulf, going up to the borderlands, which were very far from Tehran and very
far from the majority of the big cities.
But then after a few years, it started moving into Tehran because, um, bombing
raids and air raids began like Saddam
started bombing Tehran.
And then of course, Iranians bombed back, you know, it's like, it's not
like we were just saints being bombed.
You know, it went both ways.
It was horrible both ways.
And I, so I was there for that for the, for the first few years
of that before we immigrated.
And it continued on for another three years after my family left Iran.
Uh, although my extended family was still there.
It was just me and my parents who left.
So I re I'm very...
have major memories of those bombings in those areas.
And, um, and then, um, there was the other unrest that of course had to
do with the fact that, um, especially in the eighties, it's things have
loosened a little bit now, not saying it's is perfect, but they've loosened,
but in the eighties, this new regime, which was very theocratic, highly
religious, authoritarian, autocratic.
Um, and so it was always, always had a stranglehold on the people,
you know, so average people walking on the streets, you know, always
had to be watching what they did.
Careful what they said.
Any moment you could be arrested if you said the wrong thing.
And especially for children, like my, I remember my parents always saying
to me, just don't talk to anyone.
Don't say anything political.
If you hear anything we've said anything about any - this is like a six-year-old
five-year-old child - like being told, like careful who you're talking to.
Careful what you're saying.
Um, never like say anything against religion.
Never say anything against God and never...
because you're living in, in this sort of highly repressive, scary system.
It's not as bad, obviously there are problems and there are still violations
of human rights and stuff, but, but, um, it's, it used in the eighties, it
was pretty, pretty hardcore because the revolution had just happened.
So that new regime was like wanting to hold onto power no matter what.
So they were like, you know, uh, extreme in their reactions to things.
They're a bit more mellow.
It's a bit more mellow.
I mean, it's not great, but you know, you can, you can...
yeah, go ahead.
Go ahead.
No, I was going to say, do you ever go back or have you been back?
Yeah, no, unfortunately I, I haven't.
There was a time when I think there was a window of opportunity for me
to go back and I didn't take it.
Um, and then when I, I was writing the novel and it started to sort
of fall towards publication.
A lot of people said to me, listen, like you may run a risk
of some problems because there are political things in the book.
And there are sort of what kind of seemed like criticisms, where I don't know if,
whether I'm criticizing, I think I'm just sort of presenting reality and I'm letting
the reader decide what they think about what's going on, but some people said, you
know, just you run the risk of something and, and or nothing, nothing might happen.
Like I might go, we would be great, maybe fine, see if people and, um,
you know, enjoy the beauty of the country, but, but there's also a risk.
There's always that tiny bit.
So I kind of...
i, I, you know, I have to be very careful about how I approach that.
Right.
Yeah.
Fair enough.
Yeah.
Um, you mentioned there "see the beauty of the country".
Um, I think it was the Guardian review that was written, the writer
to set that Iran as kind of like a character, or Tehran is like a
character, and I totally get that.
I felt...
I've never been, I would love to go one day, but I felt, um, like I
could hear it and like, smell it.
You do, you did such an amazing job of putting the reader there.
Even if they haven't been there, you know, I feel like I can kind of picture
it and then off course, this is another great thing after reading or during, I
was looking into, you know, Tehran and, um, I wanted to see the, the mountains and
it's just such a beautiful looking city.
Reminds me of Vancouver.
Yeah.
North Van especially.
Especially North Van, I think.
I don't know if...
yeah.
Um, so tell us...
the last question I have for you...
tell us about, uh, the new book that you're writing.
Is...
can you tell us about it?
Or are you Sworn to secrecy by your publisher?
Um, no, the publishers don't, don't swear anything, they
don't make you swear anything.
I, what I, what I tend to do is I, I, um, I found even with, uh, with,
with Aria, I never really talked about what it was about really.
I just would tell people, yeah, I'm writing a novel, um, It's...
sometimes when you share a bit too much that inner world that you've created and
that sort of, um, imaginary thing that's inside you, if it leaves you too soon, um,
it might sort of dissipate, you might lose hold of it, or people's reactions might
affect your, your own thinking about it.
So you have to be very guarded about, uh, What you say.
I think.
Protect, protect it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Not that People have ill will.
Yeah.
It's just that.
Yeah.
You have to be very attuned to like your own creative sensitivities.
I can say that it does take place in Iran.
Again, it has nothing to do with Aria.
Like, um, there's no connection.
It does take place in Iran.
Um, and it...
yeah, it, I think, I think where Aria was sort of exploring sort of not fully,
but to a large extent sort of female experience the women's experiences
if we're going to gender this thing, but I'm gendering it because Iran is
a very gendered culture in terms of people's positioning funnily enough.
Not that the language isn't gendered, there's no gender in the language,
but the behavior is very gendered.
Um, this, this one really looks at men and you know, how men are
supposed to be and, um, or the male, the male so-called gender.
Um, so.
Yeah, that's the, yeah...
and again, it's, it's a much more painful experience than Aria, um,
because of the subject matter, it's very, very difficult to write about.
And, uh, I'm finding it very painful.
Like I've had, I've had like nightmares for the last two years, year and a half.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But you know, I don't, I don't want to deter readers.
I think it's a beautiful story, but like the, what the characters
are going through is very tricky.
And, uh, for someone who's like embodying and inhabiting those
people, it's very, uh, it's difficult to, it's difficult to deal with.
It's much more draining.
Yeah.
Sounds like when actors are, um, you know, playing a very difficult character, a
character who is traumatized and in pain.
They say the same thing, you know, they kind of, they feel it too, so wow.
Okay.
Well, I hope you are able to kind of decompress from it when you stop
writing or like practise self-care.
I watch a lot of like, in between like sessions like when I have
time, I watch a lot of silly things.
That's good.
It's sort of a mock mock the world or whatever.
Yeah.
