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English LingQ 2.0 Podcast, English LingQ 2.0 Podcast #10: Cancel Culture with Steve Kaufmann

English LingQ 2.0 Podcast #10: Cancel Culture with Steve Kaufmann

Elle: Hi everyone. And welcome to the English LingQ podcast with me, Elle. Remember you can, if you're studying English, you can study the transcript of this episode or any episode. I will add the link to the lesson on LingQ, L I N G Q in the description every time. LingQ is a language learning tool that allows you to learn from any content you're interested in.

So podcasts like this one, YouTube videos, Netflix shows movies, uh, blog posts, whatever you're into. Just download the browser extension and you were one click away from making a language lesson out of any content that you're interested in. So today I am joined again, but Steve Kaufmann, Steve, how are you?

Steve: I'm fine, Elle. How are you?

Elle: I'm good. Thank you. I'm good. I thought a really kind of controversial topic and relevant one that we could chat about today is this whole idea of cancel culture.

Steve: Right, well I think it's a good, sorry. It's a good topic because I think it's... some people like to shy away from controversial subjects, but I think a lot of people have different opinions on it.

So to that extent, maybe a lot of people will find this conversation. Interesting. And if something is interesting, then, uh, a, you're more likely to listen, b, it's good for your language learning because you're engaged, you know?

Elle: Yeah, yeah. For sure. It's a, I guess a relatively new term cancel culture. Um, I'll just define it.

Um, I mean, it's pretty self-explanatory I suppose, but so cancel culture is this idea that any person in the public sphere makes a mistake, present or past, it seems a lot of, a lot of times something that a person has done in... way in the past is, is, uh, scrutinized. And that person is canceled. So they are no longer, um, popular, people don't want to associate with them.

They may get dropped from labels or deals, all kinds of things. So, um, you've had some maybe experienced lately with cancel culture on Twitter. Tell us about that.

Steve: Well, I mean, I think, uh, well, in, in my case, uh, I said something which a lot of people didn't agree with. And then there was this great flurry of activity and they sort of egg their friends and everyone else to come on my Twitter feed and, and attack me.

Uh, which is fine. I, I think fundamentally the, I think the biggest problem sort of that underlines or underlies. In other words, that the core problem is this idea that we can't disagree with each other. So, I mean, obviously if in your past behavior you did something very bad. Uh, you robbed a bank or whatever, uh, then, uh, you know, and that's normally not the case.

It normally has to do with, uh, you know, sexual harassment or something like that. And, uh, so people may not want to associate with you because they consider you a person of, you know, questionable morals or something. Which is fine, which is fine. If, if I, uh, if I know of someone who behaved in a way that I consider to be immoral, even in the past, and I may not want to associate with them.

So that doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when canceled culture is used to say, this person says something that I don't agree with. And because they have a position that I don't agree with, therefore we should all gang up on him or her, or flood their Twitter feed with all kinds of attacks. Uh, or we won't let that person, say that person is a professor at a university,

uh, that person therefore should be fired. Uh, or someone is coming to give a talk and we don't agree with our position, therefore we should all boycot and demonstrate. In other words, shouting people down, basically. And, and I think this is a fundamental problem in our society. Is this basic intolerance for disagreement.

Why can't you just disagree and explain why you think you're right and the other person can explain why they think they're right. Like we needn't cancel each other out. Let's listen to each other instead.

Elle: Hmm. I agree for sure. Uh, out of interest, what was the article? That it was a news article that you'd commented on that some people didn't

like...

Steve: Well yeah, there was, there was a news article that said that university students in Saskatchewan, which is a province in Canada for those who are not from Canada, uh, that they were, uh, eating more unhealthy food and drinking more alcohol because of the, uh, restrictions the, uh, as a result of COVID. And, uh, I just expressed, I felt that this, you know, I didn't have tremendous sympathy for them and maybe I was wrong, but I just felt that in our society, when we consider all the people who are suffering from COVID: older people in long-term care homes, their family, that can't see them.

A lot of these people are dying without seeing their families. You've got people who have lost their jobs and in some cases it could be a single mum, the sole supporter of the family, whatever, compared to all of these people, uh, a student at university, uh, is, is not someone who, you know, it attracts a lot of sympathy from me.

They should, in my view, uh, they're at university, most of which is paid for by the government. Uh, they're presumably they're surrounded by books. They can get online, they can communicate with their friends online. In fact, if you're living in Saskatchewan, you can get out. There's lots... i, in fact, Googled on the internet, there's lots of cross country ski trails in both Regina and Saskatoon, which are the major cities where the universities are. Get out, get fit, get, uh, like I have this, um, uh, high intensity interval training app. Every morning, seven minutes puts me through my paces.

Like, you're young, you have your whole life ahead of you. Uh, older people may not have that many years ahead of them and they're facing a far worse situation. So I didn't express much sympathy for these students. Well, bunch of students came at me. I was at home and stuff like that.

Elle: Right then it turns into, you know, I read of course, I"m part of the LingQ team, part of the marketing team,

so I read some of the Tweets and a lot of it, then you find turns into an us versus them. So in your case, it was, you know, you're a boomer. You don't understand the...

Steve: yeah, well, that's, that's the other thing is, is that the part of the... cancel culture began with the people who feel they are quote "progressive".

Okay. So if I have a position that's quote "progressive", you're not allowed to disagree with it, and it's very progressive to be gay, black, you know, anything that's considered historically sort of victims. And of course they were, and perhaps still are victims of discrimination and, uh, fewer opportunities and all of this is true, but that doesn't mean that someone who like me I'm like I had it on a number of occasions.

If I get into a little disagreement, then I'm just an old white, you know, and I won't use the term. So like, what's wrong with being old, old, white male that's bad, like right away. If you're old white male, then that means that you're basically not to be listened to. Well, um, I don't know nothing wrong with being old.

Uh, you've certainly experienced a lot more of the world than a younger person has. Um, I think there's an excessive obsession with race in everything. Uh, I don't think whites are better or worse than any other group of people. And so I think the, the biggest part of this cancel culture has come from the universities where certain quote, "progressive" views are the only ones that are considered acceptable.

And anyone who challenges these views is bad. So yeah, I'm not in favor of that.

Elle: Hmm. That makes me think of a controversial Canadian that, um, I would love to hear her opinion on actually. Um, so Jordan Peterson, I'm sure you're aware of Jordan Peterson. Um, so yeah, he's a. Go ahead. No, go ahead. What do you think of him?

Steve: Well, when he first appeared on the scene, I saw him in an interview with this woman on the BBC, I think, and he was very good. Like he's a good debater and, uh, whatever she seemed to say, he was able to answer. And, um, you know, he, he, I guess he first got some notoriety when he refused to use these new pronouns that some university, you know, officials at the university of Toronto decided you can't go, he or she, you have to use some of these artificially invented pronouns.

And he was opposed to that. And I agreed with him, uh, you know, we have our language. I mean, where are you going to stop? You know, uh, in French they have gender for, you know, la table or whatever. Like, so now we can't have that. We can't have a female table. It's gotta be, you know, neuter table or something.

It's just silly. It affects so few people, so we're going to force everybody. And I must say I'm very allergic when I see, anywhere, you know, somebody gives their name. I'm Steve and my pronouns are he and him. That's just ridiculous. In my opinion, it's ridiculous. It may come to be that that becomes accepted and the norm, whatever, but people are quite entitled to push back against this.

Uh, I don't agree. I don't want to use, I will not use those pronouns. Sorry. Uh, however, the more exposure Peterson got, the more, it became evident that he was a bit of a kook. Uh, and, uh, I'm not sure he's totally psychologically balanced.

Elle: He's had some issues lately, I've read.

Steve: Some issues. And he also was, you know, there is this, you know, within say Western society, because,

because of sort of old white male is being challenged. So then there's this pushback, which is to suggest that everything good in the world came from old white males. Like the European Christian, all this stuff is good. We have, you know, provided these wonderful values and Western sort of civilization and stuff like that, which is actually very myopic, because everything that we have in the world,

or which is part of Western civilization is sort of an accumulation of influences. You know, technological influences from China, influences through the middle East. I'm, now I'm learning Persian, Arabic. And you read about how developed even central Asia, which we not consider a bit of a backwater economically,,

at least they were far more advanced. Uh, because they were sitting there sort of on the crossroads of, you know, China influences from China and India. You know, our mathematics, our science, our are so-called, you know, they, they love to talk about Judeo Christian values because, you know, whereas the values that underpin our society in the West are not Judaeo-Christian they're in fact pagan, because it was the Greeks and the Romans that gave us our laws gave us, you know, the first

efforts at democracy, which didn't include everyone in society, but there was this idea that you can have, uh, you know, uh, democratic, although limited suffrage, uh, system. And so much of everything that we have is that it's an amalgamation of influences from all over the world. And this process is continuing.

So Jordan Peterson, he got up on his high horse about how wonderful, you know, the sort of, uh, you know, the white man's burden kind of thing. So there was more, the more I heard him speak the less I was impressed, but the first time I heard him speak challenging, sort of these, um, you know, conventional sort of attack it's about, uh, uh, you know, protecting, you know, women are being unfairly...

he was making the point that in many professions where you have fewer women than men it's because women are less interested in those professions. I can't remember all the arguments, but there were a lot of arguments like that. And, and undoubtedly, historically, women have been disadvantaged. So it's, it's a good thing that, uh, women are, I was saying, no, me too,

I want to, you know, learn mathematics or whatever. And I certainly agree that, uh, women prime ministers, presidents can be as good, but they're not necessarily better either. They're just made, should be there and have their equal opportunity and, and people should be open-minded to, to choosing, you know, either one or the other more based... and this gets back to this whole idea of even race.

You shouldn't vote for someone like, and we have this in Canada that Chinese member of parliament says vote for me because I'm Chinese, uh, or you know, diversity. So we must have X number of, uh, people of all different origins in the cabinet to reflect, uh, you know, the racial makeup of our society. And I don't agree with that at all.

I think you should just choose... but even in saying that there are people who would want to cancel me right away for saying.

Elle: Hm. Yeah. Oh for sure.

Steve: Yeah. And in my companies, but in selling lumber, we have always had employees who were gay, uh quote "of color", whatever that means. I'm not sure what that means because the variations of color within every group can vary.

But people who are, could be identified as racial minorities, we've always had immigrants. We've had everything. And never did I hire someone because I wanted to have a diverse workforce. That was never a consideration. And we've had Sikhs. We've had you name it. I, we, and anyone working in our organization and I think most employers hire based on, can this person do the job?

Be they male, female, gay, Sikh, Chinese, African. We just hired a programmer in Ghana. Uh, to work, you know, uh, remotely, but on our project at LingQ. We're looking for the best people. I think most people are. So I think, uh, the, the, the sort of push for diversity and, and people of color, and we must do this and must do that.

That's fine.

Have that position, but then don't cancel out someone who pushes back and says, well, actually I don't believe in hiring based on diversity. I believe in hiring based on competence. That's something that's a legitimate position. Your position is you should hire based on diversity. That's fine.

You can, I'm not going to cancel you out because that's what you think, but you shouldn't cancel me out because I have a different perspective.

Elle: Fair enough. That's a very good point, actually. Well, thank you, Steve. I think we're just about at time here. This is, that was pretty interesting. I hope that you don't get cancelled for this.

Steve: Well, I hope we stir up some controversy. Controversy is good. Disagreement is good.

Elle: It is.

Steve: Rarely do you persuade the other person of your point of view. However, you're forced to think about why you think what you think, you have to listen to, what the other person has to say. That person has to listen to you.

You may not move them. They're forced to justify their position. So discussion, debate is good.

Elle: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Steve. Um, I'm sure we'll chat again. Thank you for joining me and bye.

Steve: Bye-bye.


English LingQ 2.0 Podcast #10: Cancel Culture with Steve Kaufmann

Elle: Hi everyone. And welcome to the English LingQ podcast with me, Elle. Remember you can, if you're studying English, you can study the transcript of this episode or any episode. I will add the link to the lesson on LingQ, L I N G Q in the description every time. 毎回、説明にLingQ、LINGQのレッスンへのリンクを追加します。 LingQ is a language learning tool that allows you to learn from any content you're interested in. LingQは、興味のあるコンテンツから学ぶことができる言語学習ツールです。

So podcasts like this one, YouTube videos, Netflix shows movies, uh, blog posts, whatever you're into. つまり、このようなポッドキャスト、YouTubeビデオ、Netflixは、映画、ええと、ブログ投稿など、あなたが興味を持っているものは何でも表示します。 Just download the browser extension and you were one click away from making a language lesson out of any content that you're interested in. So today I am joined again, but Steve Kaufmann, Steve, how are you?

Steve: I'm fine, Elle. How are you?

Elle: I'm good. Thank you. I'm good. I thought a really kind of controversial topic and relevant one that we could chat about today is this whole idea of cancel culture. I thought a really kind of controversial topic and relevant one that we could chat about today is this whole idea of cancel culture. 今日私たちが話すことができる本当に一種の物議を醸すトピックと関連するトピックは、文化をキャンセルするというこの全体的な考えだと思いました。

Steve: Right, well I think it's a good, sorry. スティーブ:そうですね、それは良いことだと思います。ごめんなさい。 It's a good topic because I think it's... some people like to shy away from controversial subjects, but I think a lot of people have different opinions on it. این موضوع خوبی است زیرا فکر می کنم این موضوع باشد ... برخی از افراد دوست دارند از موضوعات بحث برانگیز دوری کنند ، اما من فکر می کنم بسیاری از مردم در مورد آن نظرات مختلفی دارند. 物議を醸す話題を敬遠する人もいると思いますが、意見が違う人も多いと思います。

So to that extent, maybe a lot of people will find this conversation. ですから、その程度まで、多くの人がこの会話を見つけるでしょう。 Interesting. And if something is interesting, then, uh, a, you're more likely to listen, b, it's good for your language learning because you're engaged, you know? そして、何か面白いことがあれば、ええと、a、あなたは聞く可能性が高いです、b、あなたが従事しているので、それはあなたの言語学習に良いです、あなたは知っていますか?

Elle: Yeah, yeah. For sure. Наверняка. It's a, I guess a relatively new term cancel culture. Um, I'll just define it.

Um, I mean, it's pretty self-explanatory I suppose, but so cancel culture is this idea that any person in the public sphere makes a mistake, present or past, it seems a lot of, a lot of times something that a person has done in... way in the past is, is, uh, scrutinized. هوم ، منظورم این است که تصور می شود کاملاً خود توضیحی است ، اما بنابراین لغو فرهنگ این ایده است که هر شخصی در حوزه عمومی مرتکب اشتباهی می شود ، حال یا گذشته ، به نظر می رسد خیلی از اوقات ، چیزی که یک شخص دارد انجام شده در ... راه در گذشته است ، است ، اوه ، موشکافی شده است. ええと、つまり、それは私が思うにかなり自明ですが、キャンセル文化は、公共圏の誰もが現在または過去に間違いを犯すというこの考えです、それは多くの場合、人が持っている何かを持っているようです過去に行われた方法は、ええと、精査されています。 Я имею в виду, что это довольно понятно, я полагаю, но так что отменить культуру - это идея о том, что любой человек в общественной сфере совершает ошибку, настоящую или прошлую, кажется, много, очень часто то, что у человека есть сделано ... способом в прошлом, тщательно изучается. And that person is canceled. و آن شخص لغو می شود. So they are no longer, um, popular, people don't want to associate with them. だから彼らはもはや人気がなく、人々は彼らと付き合いたくないのです。

They may get dropped from labels or deals, all kinds of things. 彼らはラベルや取引、あらゆる種類のものから落とされるかもしれません。 Их могут выкинуть из-за лейблов или сделок, во всевозможных вещах. 它们可能会从各种标签或交易中掉落。 So, um, you've had some maybe experienced lately with cancel culture on Twitter. だから、ええと、あなたは最近、Twitterでキャンセルカルチャーを経験したことがあるかもしれません。 Tell us about that. それについて教えてください。

Steve: Well, I mean, I think, uh, well, in, in my case, uh, I said something which a lot of people didn't agree with. スティーブ:ええと、ええと、ええと、私の場合は、ええと、多くの人が同意しないことを言ったと思います。 And then there was this great flurry of activity and they sort of egg their friends and everyone else to come on my Twitter feed and, and attack me. そして、この大騒ぎがあり、彼らは友達や他のみんなに私のツイッターフィードに来て、私を攻撃するような卵を出しました。 E então houve uma grande onda de atividades e eles meio que incitaram seus amigos e todos os outros a virem no meu feed do Twitter e me atacar. 然后是一连串的活动,他们有点怂恿他们的朋友和其他所有人来我的Twitter提要上攻击我。

Uh, which is fine. ええと、それは大丈夫です。 I, I think fundamentally the, I think the biggest problem sort of that underlines or underlies. من ، من فکر می کنم اساساً ، بزرگترین مشکل این مسئله است که آن را برجسته یا اساسی می کند. 私は、基本的に、その最大の問題は、その下にある、または根底にあると思います。 Я, я думаю, в основном, я думаю, что самая большая проблема, которая подчеркивает или лежит в основе. In other words, that the core problem is this idea that we can't disagree with each other. 言い換えれば、核となる問題は、私たちが互いに意見を異にすることはできないというこの考えです。 So, I mean, obviously if in your past behavior you did something very bad. つまり、明らかに、過去の行動で非常に悪いことをした場合です。 Uh, you robbed a bank or whatever, uh, then, uh, you know, and that's normally not the case. ええと、あなたは銀行か何かを奪いました、ええと、ええと、ええと、あなたは知っています、そしてそれは通常そうではありません。

It normally has to do with, uh, you know, sexual harassment or something like that. And, uh, so people may not want to associate with you because they consider you a person of, you know, questionable morals or something. そして、ええと、人々はあなたを疑わしい道徳か何かの人と見なしているので、あなたと付き合いたくないかもしれません。 И, ммм, люди могут не захотеть общаться с вами, потому что они считают вас человеком сомнительной морали или чего-то в этом роде. Which is fine, which is fine. If, if I, uh, if I know of someone who behaved in a way that I consider to be immoral, even in the past, and I may not want to associate with them. もし私が、ええと、過去においてさえ、私が不道徳であると考える方法で行動した誰かを知っていて、私が彼らと付き合いたくないかもしれないなら。

So that doesn't bother me. だからそれは私を悩ませません。 What bothers me is when canceled culture is used to say, this person says something that I don't agree with. キャンセルされた文化がよく言われるとき、私を悩ませているのは、この人は私が同意しないことを言います。 And because they have a position that I don't agree with, therefore we should all gang up on him or her, or flood their Twitter feed with all kinds of attacks. و از آنجا که آنها موضعی دارند که من با آن موافق نیستم ، بنابراین همه باید به او حمله کنیم ، یا خوراک توییتر آنها را با انواع حملات پر کنیم. そして、彼らは私が同意しない立場にあるので、私たちは皆、彼または彼女にギャングを組むか、彼らのTwitterフィードをあらゆる種類の攻撃で溢れさせる必要があります。 Uh, or we won't let that person, say that person is a professor at a university, ええと、または私たちはその人に、その人が大学の教授であると言わせません、

uh, that person therefore should be fired. ええと、したがって、その人は解雇されるべきです。 Uh, or someone is coming to give a talk and we don't agree with our position, therefore we should all boycot and demonstrate. ええと、または誰かが話をするために来て、私たちは私たちの立場に同意しません、それで私たちは皆ボイコットしてデモンストレーションするべきです。 In other words, shouting people down, basically. 言い換えれば、基本的に人々を怒鳴りつけます。 Другими словами, в основном кричать людей. And, and I think this is a fundamental problem in our society. そして、これは私たちの社会の根本的な問題だと思います。 Is this basic intolerance for disagreement. آیا این عدم تحمل اساسی برای اختلاف نظر است. これは意見の不一致に対する基本的な不寛容ですか。

Why can't you just disagree and explain why you think you're right and the other person can explain why they think they're right. なぜあなたは自分が正しいと思う理由を単に反対して説明することができず、他の人は彼らが正しいと思う理由を説明することができます。 Like we needn't cancel each other out. مثل اینکه لازم نیست همدیگر را لغو کنیم. お互いをキャンセルする必要がないように。 Let's listen to each other instead.

Elle: Hmm. I agree for sure. Uh, out of interest, what was the article? That it was a news article that you'd commented on that some people didn't

like...

Steve: Well yeah, there was, there was a news article that said that university students in Saskatchewan, which is a province in Canada for those who are not from Canada, uh, that they were, uh, eating more unhealthy food and drinking more alcohol because of the, uh, restrictions the, uh, as a result of COVID. And, uh, I just expressed, I felt that this, you know, I didn't have tremendous sympathy for them and maybe I was wrong, but I just felt that in our society, when we consider all the people who are suffering from COVID: older people in long-term care homes, their family, that can't see them.

A lot of these people are dying without seeing their families. You've got people who have lost their jobs and in some cases it could be a single mum, the sole supporter of the family, whatever, compared to all of these people, uh, a student at university, uh, is, is not someone who, you know, it attracts a lot of sympathy from me.

They should, in my view, uh, they're at university, most of which is paid for by the government. Uh, they're presumably they're surrounded by books. ええと、彼らはおそらく本に囲まれています。 They can get online, they can communicate with their friends online. In fact, if you're living in Saskatchewan, you can get out. There's lots... i, in fact, Googled on the internet, there's lots of cross country ski trails in both Regina and Saskatoon, which are the major cities where the universities are. たくさんあります...実際、インターネットでグーグルで検索したところ、大学がある主要都市であるレジーナとサスカトゥーンの両方にクロスカントリースキーコースがたくさんあります。 Get out, get fit, get, uh, like I have this, um, uh, high intensity interval training app. 出て、体調を整えて、出て、ええと、私がこれを持っているように、ええと、ええと、高強度インターバルトレーニングアプリ。 Every morning, seven minutes puts me through my paces.

Like, you're young, you have your whole life ahead of you. まるで、あなたは若いです、あなたはあなたの前にあなたの人生全体を持っています。 Uh, older people may not have that many years ahead of them and they're facing a far worse situation. ええと、年配の人は彼らより何年も先を行っていないかもしれません、そして彼らははるかに悪い状況に直面しています。 So I didn't express much sympathy for these students. Well, bunch of students came at me. I was at home and stuff like that.

Elle: Right then it turns into, you know, I read of course, I"m part of the LingQ team, part of the marketing team, エル:その時、私はもちろん、LingQチームの一員であり、マーケティングチームの一員です。

so I read some of the Tweets and a lot of it, then you find turns into an us versus them. だから私はいくつかのツイートとそれをたくさん読んだ、そしてあなたは彼らに対して私たちに変わるのを見つける。 So in your case, it was, you know, you're a boomer. بنابراین ، در مورد شما ، این بود ، شما می دانید ، شما یک رونق هستید. ですから、あなたの場合、それはあなたが団塊世代であるということでした。 You don't understand the...

Steve: yeah, well, that's, that's the other thing is, is that the part of the... cancel culture began with the people who feel they are quote "progressive". استیو: بله ، خوب ، این ، چیز دیگری است ، این است که بخشی از فرهنگ لغو با افرادی شروع می شود که احساس می کنند "مترقی" هستند. スティーブ:ええ、そうですね、それはもう1つです。キャンセル文化の一部は、「プログレッシブ」と言っていると感じる人々から始まりました。 Steve: ja, dat is het andere, dat is dat het deel van de ... annuleringscultuur begon met de mensen die denken dat ze "progressief" citeren.

Okay. So if I have a position that's quote "progressive", you're not allowed to disagree with it, and it's very progressive to be gay, black, you know, anything that's considered historically sort of victims. ですから、私が「プログレッシブ」と言っている立場を持っている場合、あなたはそれに反対することは許されません。そして、歴史的に一種の犠牲者と見なされているものは何でも、ゲイ、黒人になることは非常に進歩的です。 And of course they were, and perhaps still are victims of discrimination and, uh, fewer opportunities and all of this is true, but that doesn't mean that someone who like me I'm like I had it on a number of occasions. そしてもちろん、彼らは差別の犠牲者であり、おそらくまだ差別の犠牲者であり、機会が少なく、これはすべて真実ですが、それは私を好きな人が何度もそれを持っていたようだという意味ではありません。

If I get into a little disagreement, then I'm just an old white, you know, and I won't use the term. 私が少し意見の相違に陥った場合、私はただの古い白人です、あなたが知っている、そして私はその用語を使用しません。 So like, what's wrong with being old, old, white male that's bad, like right away. だから、すぐにのように、悪い、古い、白人の男性であることの何が問題になっているのか。 If you're old white male, then that means that you're basically not to be listened to. あなたが年配の白人男性なら、それはあなたが基本的に聞かれるべきではないことを意味します。 Well, um, I don't know nothing wrong with being old. ええと、私は年をとることに何の問題もありません。

Uh, you've certainly experienced a lot more of the world than a younger person has. ええと、あなたは確かに若い人よりもはるかに多くの世界を経験しました。 Um, I think there's an excessive obsession with race in everything. ええと、私はすべてにおいて人種への過度の執着があると思います。 Uh, I don't think whites are better or worse than any other group of people. And so I think the, the biggest part of this cancel culture has come from the universities where certain quote, "progressive" views are the only ones that are considered acceptable. ですから、このキャンセル文化の大部分は、特定の引用、「進歩的な」見解だけが受け入れられると考えられている大学から来ていると思います。

And anyone who challenges these views is bad. そして、これらの見解に異議を唱える人は誰でも悪いです。 So yeah, I'm not in favor of that. そうそう、私はそれを支持していません。 Так что да, я не сторонник этого.

Elle: Hmm. That makes me think of a controversial Canadian that, um, I would love to hear her opinion on actually. それは私に物議を醸しているカナダ人のことを思い起こさせます、ええと、私は実際に彼女の意見を聞きたいです。 Um, so Jordan Peterson, I'm sure you're aware of Jordan Peterson. ええと、ジョーダン・ピーターソン、あなたはジョーダン・ピーターソンを知っていると確信しています。 Um, so yeah, he's a. Go ahead. ええと、そうそう、彼はです。先に行く。 No, go ahead. What do you think of him?

Steve: Well, when he first appeared on the scene, I saw him in an interview with this woman on the BBC, I think, and he was very good. スティーブ:まあ、彼が最初に現場に現れたとき、私は彼がBBCでこの女性とのインタビューで彼を見たと思います、そして彼はとても良かったです。 Like he's a good debater and, uh, whatever she seemed to say, he was able to answer. 彼は良い討論者であるように、そして、ええと、彼女が何を言おうとも、彼は答えることができました。 Alsof hij een goede debater is en, eh, wat ze ook leek te zeggen, hij was in staat om te antwoorden. And, um, you know, he, he, I guess he first got some notoriety when he refused to use these new pronouns that some university, you know, officials at the university of Toronto decided you can't go, he or she, you have to use some of these artificially invented pronouns. そして、ええと、彼、彼、私は彼がこれらの新しい代名詞の使用を拒否したときに最初にいくつかの悪評を得たと思います、あなたが知っている、トロント大学の当局者はあなたが行くことができないと決めました、彼または彼女、これらの人工的に発明された代名詞のいくつかを使用する必要があります。 E, um, você sabe, ele, ele, eu acho que ele ganhou alguma notoriedade quando se recusou a usar esses novos pronomes que algumas universidades, você sabe, funcionários da universidade de Toronto decidiram que você não pode ir, ele ou ela, você tem que usar alguns desses pronomes artificialmente inventados.

And he was opposed to that. そして彼はそれに反対した。 And I agreed with him, uh, you know, we have our language. そして私は彼に同意しました、ええと、あなたが知っている、私たちは私たちの言語を持っています。 I mean, where are you going to stop? つまり、どこで止まるの? You know, uh, in French they have gender for, you know, la table or whatever. می دانید ، اوه ، در فرانسه آنها دارای جنسیت هستند ، می دانید ، la table یا هر چیز دیگری. Like, so now we can't have that. مانند ، بنابراین اکنون ما نمی توانیم چنین چیزی داشته باشیم. We can't have a female table. 女性のテーブルは持てません。 It's gotta be, you know, neuter table or something. それは、あなたが知っている、中性テーブルか何かでなければなりません。

It's just silly. It affects so few people, so we're going to force everybody. 影響を受ける人は非常に少ないので、全員に強制します。 And I must say I'm very allergic when I see, anywhere, you know, somebody gives their name. و باید بگویم که من بسیار حساسیت دارم وقتی می بینم ، هر کجا ، می دانید ، کسی نام خود را می گذارد. そして、どこでも、誰かが彼らの名前を付けているのを見ると、私は非常にアレルギーがあると言わなければなりません。 I'm Steve and my pronouns are he and him. That's just ridiculous. این فقط مسخره است In my opinion, it's ridiculous. به نظر من مسخره است It may come to be that that becomes accepted and the norm, whatever, but people are quite entitled to push back against this. ممکن است به نظر برسد که این مورد پذیرفته شده و هنجار باشد ، اما مردم کاملاً حق دارند در برابر این مسئله عقب نشینی کنند. それが受け入れられ、標準になることになるかもしれませんが、人々はこれに反対する権利があります。

Uh, I don't agree. I don't want to use, I will not use those pronouns. Sorry. Uh, however, the more exposure Peterson got, the more, it became evident that he was a bit of a kook. اوه ، هرچقدر پیترسون بیشتر در معرض دید قرار می گرفت ، بیشتر مشخص می شد که او کمی آدم کوک است. しかし、ええと、ピーターソンがより多くの露出を得るほど、彼が少しおかしな人であることが明らかになりました。 Maar hoe meer bekendheid Peterson kreeg, hoe meer het duidelijk werd dat hij een beetje een gek was. Мм, однако, чем больше разоблачали Петерсона, тем больше становилось очевидным, что он немного чокнутый. Uh, and, uh, I'm not sure he's totally psychologically balanced. اوه ، و ، اوه ، من مطمئن نیستم که او کاملاً از نظر روانی متعادل باشد. ええと、ええと、彼が完全に心理的にバランスが取れているかどうかはわかりません。

Elle: He's had some issues lately, I've read.

Steve: Some issues. And he also was, you know, there is this, you know, within say Western society, because,

because of sort of old white male is being challenged. ある種の古い白人男性のために挑戦されています。 So then there's this pushback, which is to suggest that everything good in the world came from old white males. بنابراین این فشار بازگشت وجود دارد ، که نشان می دهد همه چیز خوب در جهان از مردان سفیدپوست پیر است. Like the European Christian, all this stuff is good. We have, you know, provided these wonderful values and Western sort of civilization and stuff like that, which is actually very myopic, because everything that we have in the world,

or which is part of Western civilization is sort of an accumulation of influences. You know, technological influences from China, influences through the middle East. I'm, now I'm learning Persian, Arabic. And you read about how developed even central Asia, which we not consider a bit of a backwater economically,, و شما در مورد چگونگی توسعه یافته حتی آسیای میانه ، که ما از نظر اقتصادی کمی پساب نمی دانیم ، می خوانید ، そして、あなたは中央アジアでさえどのように発展したかについて読みました、それは私たちが経済的に少しの背水を考慮していません、、 En je leest over hoe ontwikkeld zelfs Centraal-Azië, dat we economisch niet als een opstuwing beschouwen,

at least they were far more advanced. Uh, because they were sitting there sort of on the crossroads of, you know, China influences from China and India. You know, our mathematics, our science, our are so-called, you know, they, they love to talk about Judeo Christian values because, you know, whereas the values that underpin our society in the West are not Judaeo-Christian they're in fact pagan, because it was the Greeks and the Romans that gave us our laws gave us, you know, the first 私たちの数学、科学、私たちのいわゆる、あなたが知っている、彼らは、ユダヤ教のキリスト教の価値観について話すのが大好きですが、西洋の私たちの社会を支えている価値観はユダヤ教とキリスト教ではありません。実際、異教徒でした。なぜなら、私たちの法律を私たちに与えたのはギリシャ人とローマ人だったからです。

efforts at democracy, which didn't include everyone in society, but there was this idea that you can have, uh, you know, uh, democratic, although limited suffrage, uh, system. 社会のすべての人が含まれていなかった民主主義への取り組みですが、選挙権は限られていますが、民主主義のシステムを持つことができるという考えがありました。 And so much of everything that we have is that it's an amalgamation of influences from all over the world. そして、私たちが持っているすべてのものの多くは、それが世界中からの影響の融合であるということです。 And this process is continuing.

So Jordan Peterson, he got up on his high horse about how wonderful, you know, the sort of, uh, you know, the white man's burden kind of thing. جردن پیترسون ، او سوار بر اسب بلند خود بلند شد و درمورد اینکه چقدر عالی است ، می دانید ، نوع کار انسان سفید است. それでジョーダン・ピーターソン、彼は彼の高い馬に乗って、白人の負担のようなものがどれほど素晴らしいか、あなたが知っている、ある種の、ええと、あなたが知っている。 So there was more, the more I heard him speak the less I was impressed, but the first time I heard him speak challenging, sort of these, um, you know, conventional sort of attack it's about, uh, uh, you know, protecting, you know, women are being unfairly... ですから、彼が話すのを聞くほど、私は感動しなくなりましたが、彼が挑戦的に話すのを初めて聞いたときは、これらのようなものでした。保護する、あなたが知っている、女性は不当にされています...

he was making the point that in many professions where you have fewer women than men it's because women are less interested in those professions. 彼は、男性よりも女性の数が少ない多くの職業では、女性がそれらの職業にあまり興味がないためだと主張していました。 I can't remember all the arguments, but there were a lot of arguments like that. すべての議論を思い出せませんが、そのような議論はたくさんありました。 And, and undoubtedly, historically, women have been disadvantaged. そして、間違いなく、歴史的に、女性は不利な立場に置かれてきました。 So it's, it's a good thing that, uh, women are, I was saying, no, me too, ですから、それは良いことです、ええと、女性は、私が言っていた、いいえ、私もです、

I want to, you know, learn mathematics or whatever. And I certainly agree that, uh, women prime ministers, presidents can be as good, but they're not necessarily better either. そして、私は確かに、ええと、女性の首相、大統領は同じくらい良いかもしれないが、彼らも必ずしも良いとは限らないことに同意します。 They're just made, should be there and have their equal opportunity and, and people should be open-minded to, to choosing, you know, either one or the other more based... and this gets back to this whole idea of even race. それらは作成されたばかりであり、そこにあり、機会均等があり、人々はどちらか一方に基づいて選択することにオープンマインドである必要があります...そしてこれはこの全体的な考えに戻りますレースさえ。

You shouldn't vote for someone like, and we have this in Canada that Chinese member of parliament says vote for me because I'm Chinese, uh, or you know, diversity. あなたはそのような人に投票するべきではありません、そして私はカナダでこれを持っています、私は中国人なので、中国の国会議員が私に投票すると言います、ええと、またはあなたが知っている、多様性。 So we must have X number of, uh, people of all different origins in the cabinet to reflect, uh, you know, the racial makeup of our society. ですから、私たちの社会の人種構成を反映するために、内閣にはX人のさまざまな出身の人々がいる必要があります。 And I don't agree with that at all. そして、私はそれに全く同意しません。

I think you should just choose... but even in saying that there are people who would want to cancel me right away for saying. 私はあなたがただ選ぶべきだと思います...しかし、言ってもすぐに私をキャンセルしたいと思う人がいると言っても。

Elle: Hm. Yeah. Oh for sure. 確かに。

Steve: Yeah. And in my companies, but in selling lumber, we have always had employees who were gay, uh quote "of color", whatever that means. و در شرکت های من ، اما در فروش چوب ، ما همیشه کارمندانی داشته ایم که همجنسگرا بوده اند ، و به نقل از "رنگ" ، معنای آن چیست. I'm not sure what that means because the variations of color within every group can vary. من مطمئن نیستم که این به چه معنی است زیرا تغییرات رنگ در هر گروه ممکن است متفاوت باشد.

But people who are, could be identified as racial minorities, we've always had immigrants. اما افرادی که می توانند به عنوان اقلیت نژادی شناخته شوند ، ما همیشه مهاجر داشته ایم. しかし、人種的マイノリティであると特定できる人々は、常に移民を抱えてきました。 We've had everything. ما همه چیز را داشته ایم And never did I hire someone because I wanted to have a diverse workforce. و هرگز کسی را استخدام نکردم زیرا می خواستم نیروی کار متنوعی داشته باشم. That was never a consideration. این هرگز قابل ملاحظه نبود. それは決して考慮事項ではありませんでした。 And we've had Sikhs. و ما سیک داشته ایم. En we hebben Sikhs gehad. We've had you name it. ما نام شما را به شما داده ایم. 名前を付けてもらいました。 I, we, and anyone working in our organization and I think most employers hire based on, can this person do the job? من ، ما و هر کسی که در سازمان ما کار می کند و فکر می کنم بیشتر کارفرمایان بر اساس این استخدام می کنند ، آیا این شخص می تواند کار را انجام دهد؟

Be they male, female, gay, Sikh, Chinese, African. مرد ، زن ، همجنسگرا ، سیک ، چینی ، آفریقایی باشند. We just hired a programmer in Ghana. ما فقط یک برنامه نویس در غنا استخدام کردیم. Uh, to work, you know, uh, remotely, but on our project at LingQ. اوه ، برای کار ، می دانید ، اوه ، از راه دور ، اما در پروژه ما در LingQ. ええと、仕事をするために、ええと、リモートで、しかしLingQでの私たちのプロジェクトで。 We're looking for the best people. ما به دنبال بهترین افراد هستیم. I think most people are. So I think, uh, the, the, the sort of push for diversity and, and people of color, and we must do this and must do that.

That's fine.

Have that position, but then don't cancel out someone who pushes back and says, well, actually I don't believe in hiring based on diversity. その立場を持っていますが、それなら、押し返し、まあ、実際には多様性に基づいて採用することを信じていないと言う人をキャンセルしないでください。 I believe in hiring based on competence. That's something that's a legitimate position. それは正当な立場です。 Your position is you should hire based on diversity. That's fine.

You can, I'm not going to cancel you out because that's what you think, but you shouldn't cancel me out because I have a different perspective. あなたがそう思うので、私はあなたをキャンセルするつもりはありませんが、私は別の見方をしているので、あなたは私をキャンセルするべきではありません。

Elle: Fair enough. That's a very good point, actually. Well, thank you, Steve. I think we're just about at time here. من فکر می کنم ما اینجا فقط به موقع هستیم. 私たちはちょうどここにいる時間だと思います。 This is, that was pretty interesting. I hope that you don't get cancelled for this. これでキャンセルされないことを願っています。

Steve: Well, I hope we stir up some controversy. スティーブ:まあ、私たちはいくつかの論争を巻き起こすことを願っています。 Controversy is good. Disagreement is good. 意見の相違は良いです。

Elle: It is.

Steve: Rarely do you persuade the other person of your point of view. スティーブ:自分の見方を相手に説得することはめったにありません。 However, you're forced to think about why you think what you think, you have to listen to, what the other person has to say. しかし、なぜ自分が自分の考えを考え、耳を傾け、他の人が何を言わなければならないのかを考えることを余儀なくされています。 That person has to listen to you.

You may not move them. それらを移動することはできません。 They're forced to justify their position. So discussion, debate is good. ですから、議論、議論は良いことです。

Elle: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Steve. Um, I'm sure we'll chat again. Thank you for joining me and bye.

Steve: Bye-bye.