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Moyers on Democracy podcast, Corruption at the Core: Bill Moyers talks with Sarah Chayes (1)

Corruption at the Core: Bill Moyers talks with Sarah Chayes (1)

ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Moyers on Democracy. You may have seen the jaw-dropping news this week that some $2 trillion dollars – yes, two trillion dollars – poured through America's financial system to fund criminal activity over the past 20 years. Yet unnamed sources leaked the documents to BuzzFeed News which shared the information with other publications; you can check the full story at The Guardian.org., which reports that one of the named suspects is Paul Manafort, President Trump's campaign manager in 2016. The story broke just as we were about to release the interview Bill Moyers conducted with Sarah Chayes on her new book ON CORRUPTION IN AMERICA. As a prizewinning reporter for NPR Chayes covered France, Europe, North Africa the Kosovo war, and the fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan, She stayed to help rebuild the country, running a soap factory and founding a farmers' cooperative, among other things. After serving as a senior adviser to two U.S. field commanders and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff she took off to examine the roots of corruption in several far-flung countries. You'll find the name Sarah Chayes on three acclaimed books, including the latest, ON CORRUPTION IN AMERICA. Here is Bill Moyers with Sarah Chayes.

BILL MOYERS: Sarah Chayes, it's good to see you again.

SARAH CHAYES: Such a pleasure, Bill.

BILL MOYERS: You know, I have tracked you for a long time.

SARAH CHAYES: Yes, sir.

BILL MOYERS: And it's just been interesting to watch your life and your work bring you to this moment. And I know you have been working for a decade now to fight corruption in countries like Nigeria and Afghanistan and now the United States. You say corruption is the defining issue of what is happening in this country. Why did you take this on?

SARAH CHAYES: I didn't intend to work on corruption in Afghanistan. It was Afghans who came to me. This was the most important thing that was disrupting their lives. And to them spelled failure of the stated US mission to help birth a reasonably just, equitable government there in which the population would have a say in their collective destiny. Afghans were telling me, but look at how this government that you people are supporting is treating us. And so I came, quite quickly, to recognize that this issue is what was driving people back into the arms of the Taliban.

BILL MOYERS: Corruption was driving them?

SARAH CHAYES: Corruption. And so, what I did was go to a variety of different countries and found that corrupt government was driving just about every world crisis you could name, including the environmental crisis, including mass migration, including a lot of civil strife. So, I felt as though focusing on anything else is almost derivative.

BILL MOYERS: What you found was that people were indignant at their own government's corruption, and America's role in enabling it.

SARAH CHAYES: That is exactly correct. We are living in an unprecedented period of indignation against systemic corruption. Unprecedented. If I named all of the revolutions around the world, you know, it would take the rest of our hour, including the Arab Spring, including Ukraine, including South Korea, including Lebanon repeatedly, including a variety of Latin American countries. And there is a systemically corrupt government in all of the Gulf nations, but certainly Saudi Arabia. And we have been married, the United States has been married to enabling and reinforcing the Saudi Arabian government for decades. And yet I have rarely seen an example of a genuine reformer capitalizing on the indignation to bring the country in question to a more just and equitable situation governed by public integrity first. Instead I find that demagogues or the kleptocratic network itself almost everywhere are gaining the benefit of these reactions.

BILL MOYERS: You say in ON CORRUPTION IN AMERICA: AND WHAT IS AT STAKE, “It's not an isolated scandal or even a whole stack of them. It's the operating system of sophisticated and astonishingly successful kleptocratic networks.” And you compare these networks to the Hydra – the creature with the body of a serpent and eight mortal heads and a ninth head that was immortal and lived forever. Why the Hydra?

SARAH CHAYES: We're going back to mythology or sacred stories. So, the Hydra is an analogy for these networks for two important reasons. One is: those heads appear to be separate snakes. When you look at one or look at the other, it's a very scary snake doing its own thing, but they're joined to a single body. So, it really helped illustrate the idea that it's not one individual or one actor doing something wrong. Rather, they're acting to the benefit of this larger network. And we should never forget that as much as we have to look at, how did this individual benefit from his or her political office? How did Ivanka Trump? How did Mr. DeJoy? How did, you know– what we do have to bear in mind is that the transactional nature of the wrongful acts is not necessarily direct. US law commands us to look for a quid pro quo, but often the return comes later. So, I might bend a rule that I might never benefit from, but this other member of the network then benefits. You can't call that a quid pro quo, but that's how the Hydra operates. And so, that's why corruption is a deeper and more general phenomenon. The other aspect that's really critically important is that even the mortal heads, when you whack one off, two more grow. Too often, not always, but too often when I have looked at anti-corruption insurrections overseas, I see a fixation on the one individual or his or her family who seems to personify the corrupt system. And it never works. Look at Guatemala. Look at Egypt. Look at even Tunisia. So many of these anti-corruption uprisings, the government tumbles, the government comes down, but the network is able to generate a new head, which immediately takes the place of the old one. So, for Americans, I would urge all of us, as outraged, disgusted, offended as many of us may be by the lengths to which President Trump and many of those around them have brought the misuse of the public trust for personal gain, as outraged as we may be about that, we must not fool ourselves that by getting rid of this individual or this administration, we will solve the problem. And the problem is the Midas disease. When you have the Midas disease it's that you're so infatuated with money that you convert everything that's sacred, meaning our earth, the land, what's on the land, what's under the land, human creativity, human labor, love, relationships. You monetize all of that. And when a society is struck by the epidemic of Midas disease, what it means is that money becomes the chief source of social standing. And that's a huge conversion. It's no longer your honor, or your courage or your wisdom or your ability to play beautiful music. You're not honored by society for that as much as you are honored for accumulating money. And the danger of that is, it's a race with no finish line. Bill, you have $3 million in your bank account. You've got 3 million. How many zeroes is that? Three followed by, you know, this number of zeros. I better get a four ahead of my zeros because I otherwise I'm not better than you. And so it becomes this race and then it leads to preposterous extremes where you've got the current secretary of commerce, Wilbur Ross, you know, who lied to Forbes magazine about how many zeros he had, you know, I mean, really? Really? Like, we've descended to this? And the problem is that once a society is in the grip of that kind of a pandemic, the money hoarders organize themselves into a coalition in order to bend the rules of the game to ensure that they can keep competing with each other about more zeros, that, that the flow of money goes to them. And that's how you get systemic corruption.

BILL MOYERS: And as you say, it is not a partisan casino, it's run by both parties.

SARAH CHAYES: Yes. The virulence of the political battle can camouflage the identity of interests across that political divide among the meat hogs.

BILL MOYERS: And by meat hogs, you mean?

SARAH CHAYES: The plutocracy. You know, the plutocracy, the integrated network of government officials and top private wealth maximizers that are in this web where they switch places frequently, they rig this system to serve the interests of this network rather than the public interest.

BILL MOYERS: I was struck when President Trump delivered his acceptance speech of the nomination at the White House and the camera panned down to the crowd. The very first row was one plutocrat, one fat cat after another, right there looking very, very, very much at home. And in the back of them were the quote so-called ordinary people. It was the marriage, symbolically, of what you write about in the book, plutocracy and populism. You appeal to the populists, the everyday people who are angry at a risk system that's rigged, but the very people rigging the system are sitting there at the head of the line.

SARAH CHAYES: Okay, you've touched on two really deep issues here. One is the coalition of meat hogs, if you will, the plutocrats, right? What is fascinating about that coalition is it's a network. It's a web, right? Of connections among people. And what's really deceptive about these networks, these kleptocratic or plutocratic networks, is that they cross all the divides that we commonly use to categorize our society, right? They cross public and private sectors. So, by having in their coalition, government officials who can wield government powers and access government money, private, big businessmen who monetize authorizations and things like that, who convert sacred values into money. I mean, it's an extremely capable coalition. It's extremely flexible and adaptable. So that's who you were looking at on the stage and in the front row, right? You've got the symbols of government power, the guy holding them, and you've got the plutocrats and you know, those guys, the moguls in the front row.

BILL MOYERS: And democracy was supposed to be a check on the unbridled power of money.

SARAH CHAYES: Absolutely. But what you are seeing when you describe that crowd with the sort of ordinary folks who are revolted against the rigged system, somehow allying themselves with this very same rigged system, what you see is an expert manipulation of identity divides, and that it is the most powerful tool that kleptocratic networks use worldwide. Lebanon is a really stark example, but it's exactly what's happening here too, which is you appeal to people on an identity level. And if you make that appeal strong and effective enough, you actually overpower their indignation at the rigged system, or you deflect it. You say who's rigging the system isn't us billionaires. It's those educated people like, you know, it's the, it's the main stream, the lame stream media people. It's people with who have advanced degrees. You know, you're appealing to the resentment of the two thirds of the country that don't have a college degree, for example, who frankly have been treated with some contempt by the professional classes. And you activate that and you divert their indignation at rigged system against the professional classes while you laugh all the way to the bank.

BILL MOYERS: It's also a fact that both political parties in the eighties and nineties failed the people you are talking about.

Corruption at the Core: Bill Moyers talks with Sarah Chayes (1) 腐败|在|这个|核心|比尔|莫耶斯|交谈|和|萨拉|查耶斯 |||Noyau||||||Chayes الفساد في القلب: بيل مويرز يتحدث مع سارة تشايس (1) Corrupção no centro: Bill Moyers conversa com Sarah Chayes (1) 核心的腐败：比尔·莫耶斯与萨拉·查耶斯对话（1）

ANNOUNCER: Welcome to Moyers on Democracy. 主播|欢迎|到|莫耶斯|在|民主 المذيع: مرحبًا بكم في موقع مويرز للديمقراطية. 播音员：欢迎来到《莫耶斯与民主》。 You may have seen the jaw-dropping news this week that some $2 trillion dollars – yes, two trillion dollars – poured through America's financial system to fund criminal activity over the past 20 years. 你|可能|有|看到|这个|||新闻|这个|星期|那|一些|万亿|美元|是的|两|万亿|美元|流入|通过|美国的|金融|系统|为了|资助|犯罪|活动|超过|这|过去的|年 |||||mâchoire||||||||||||||||||||||||| ربما تكون قد شاهدت الأخبار المذهلة هذا الأسبوع بأن حوالي 2 تريليون دولار - نعم ، تريليوني دولار - تم ضخها من خلال النظام المالي الأمريكي لتمويل النشاط الإجرامي على مدار العشرين عامًا الماضية. 您可能看到本周令人震惊的消息，过去20年中，约有2万亿美元——没错，2万亿美元——通过美国的金融系统流入犯罪活动。 Yet unnamed sources leaked the documents to BuzzFeed News which shared the information with other publications; you can check the full story at The Guardian.org., which reports that one of the named suspects is Paul Manafort, President Trump's campaign manager in 2016. |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||保罗|马纳福特|总统|特朗普的|竞选|经理|在 |non nommé||||||BuzzFeed|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||Manafort||||| ومع ذلك ، سربت مصادر لم تسمها الوثائق إلى BuzzFeed News التي شاركت المعلومات مع منشورات أخرى ؛ يمكنك التحقق من القصة الكاملة على موقع The Guardian.org ، الذي يفيد بأن أحد المشتبه بهم المذكورين هو بول مانافورت ، مدير حملة الرئيس ترامب في عام 2016. 尚未透露姓名的消息来源将文件泄露给BuzzFeed新闻，并与其他出版物分享了这些信息；您可以在The Guardian.org查看完整故事，该报道指出其中一名被指控的嫌疑人是保罗·马纳福特，特朗普总统2016年的竞选经理。 The story broke just as we were about to release the interview Bill Moyers conducted with Sarah Chayes on her new book ON CORRUPTION IN AMERICA. 这个|故事|破裂|正好|当|我们|正在|将要|去|发布|这个|采访|比尔|莫耶斯|进行|和|萨拉|查耶斯|关于|她的|新|书|在|腐败|在|美国 اندلعت القصة بينما كنا على وشك إصدار المقابلة التي أجراها بيل مويرز مع سارة تشايس حول كتابها الجديد عن الفساد في أمريكا. 这个故事在我们即将发布比尔·莫耶斯与萨拉·查耶斯关于她的新书《美国的腐败》的采访时爆出。 As a prizewinning reporter for NPR Chayes covered France, Europe, North Africa the Kosovo war, and the fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan, She stayed to help rebuild the country, running a soap factory and founding a farmers' cooperative, among other things. 作为|一名|获奖|记者|为|NPR|查耶斯|报道|法国|欧洲|北|非洲|这个|科索沃|战争|和|这个|垮台|的|这个|塔利班|在|阿富汗|她|留下|去|帮助|重建|这个|国家|经营|一个|肥皂|工厂|和|创办|一个|农民的|合作社|在|其他|事情 ||récompensé||||||||||||||||||talibans||||||||||||||||||||| بصفتها مراسلة حائزة على جوائز في NPR Chayes غطت فرنسا وأوروبا وشمال إفريقيا حرب كوسوفو وسقوط طالبان في أفغانستان ، بقيت للمساعدة في إعادة بناء البلاد ، وإدارة مصنع للصابون وتأسيس تعاونية للمزارعين ، من بين أمور أخرى. 作为NPR的获奖记者，查耶斯报道了法国、欧洲、北非、科索沃战争以及塔利班在阿富汗的垮台。她留在那儿帮助重建国家，经营一家肥皂厂，并创办了一个农民合作社，等等。 After serving as a senior adviser to two U.S. 在之后|担任|作为|一名|高级|顾问|给|两个|| |||||conseiller|||| بعد أن شغل منصب مستشار أول أميركيين 在担任两位美国高级顾问和参谋长联席会议主席后，她出发去考察几个偏远国家腐败的根源。 field commanders and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff she took off to examine the roots of corruption in several far-flung countries. 战场|指挥官|和|这个|主席|的|这个|联合|首席|的|参谋|她|她开始|离开|去|检查|这个|根源|的|腐败|在|几个|||国家 |||||||||||||||||||||||éloignés| القادة الميدانيين ورئيس هيئة الأركان المشتركة أقلعت لفحص جذور الفساد في العديد من البلدان النائية. You'll find the name Sarah Chayes on three acclaimed books, including the latest, ON CORRUPTION IN AMERICA. 你会|找到|这个|名字|Sarah|Chayes|在|三|受赞誉的|书|包括|这个|最新|关于|腐败|在|美国 ||||||||réputés|||||||| 你会在三本备受赞誉的书中找到莎拉·查耶斯的名字，包括最新的《美国的腐败》。 Here is Bill Moyers with Sarah Chayes. 这里|是|Bill|Moyers|和|Sarah|Chayes 这是比尔·莫耶斯与莎拉·查耶斯的对话。

BILL MOYERS: Sarah Chayes, it's good to see you again. Bill|Moyers|Sarah|Chayes|它是|好|去|见|你|再次比尔·莫耶斯：莎拉·查耶斯，很高兴再次见到你。

SARAH CHAYES: Such a pleasure, Bill. Sarah|Chayes|如此|一个|高兴|Bill 莎拉·查耶斯：很高兴，比尔。

BILL MOYERS: You know, I have tracked you for a long time. 比尔|莫耶斯|你|知道|我|有|跟踪|你|为了|一|长|时间 ||||||suivi||||| 比尔·莫耶斯：你知道，我关注你很久了。

SARAH CHAYES: Yes, sir. 萨拉|查耶斯|是|先生莎拉·查耶斯：是的，先生。

BILL MOYERS: And it's just been interesting to watch your life and your work bring you to this moment. 比尔|莫耶斯|而且|它是|只是|一直|有趣|去|观看|你的|生活|和|你的|工作|带来|你|到|这个|时刻比尔·莫耶斯：看到你的生活和工作带你走到这个时刻，真是有趣。 And I know you have been working for a decade now to fight corruption in countries like Nigeria and Afghanistan and now the United States. 而且|我|知道|你|已经|一直|工作|为了|一|十年|现在|去|打击|腐败|在|国家|像|尼日利亚|和|阿富汗|和|现在|美国|| 我知道你已经在努力打击像尼日利亚、阿富汗以及现在的美国等国的腐败，已经有十年了。 You say corruption is the defining issue of what is happening in this country. 你|说|腐败|是|这个|定义|问题|的|什么|是|发生|在|这个|国家你说腐败是这个国家发生的事情的决定性问题。 Why did you take this on? 为什么|助动词|你|接受|这个|上你为什么要处理这个问题？

SARAH CHAYES: I didn't intend to work on corruption in Afghanistan. Sarah|Chayes|我|没有|打算|去|工作|在|腐败|在|阿富汗莎拉·查耶斯：我并不打算在阿富汗工作腐败问题。 It was Afghans who came to me. 这|是|阿富汗人|谁|来|向|我是阿富汗人找到了我。 This was the most important thing that was disrupting their lives. 这|是|最|最|重要的|事情|那|是|打扰|他们的|生活 ||||||||perturbant|| 这对他们的生活造成了最重要的干扰。 And to them spelled failure of the stated US mission to help birth a reasonably just, equitable government there in which the population would have a say in their collective destiny. 而且|对|他们|意味着|失败|的|这个|声明的|美国|任务|去|帮助|诞生|一个|合理地|公正的|公平的|政府|在那里|在|其中|这个|人口|将会|有|一个|发言权|在|他们的|集体|命运 |||||||déclaré|||||||raisonnablement||équitable|||||||||||||| И для них это означало провал заявленной миссии США по содействию рождению там достаточно справедливого, равноправного правительства, при котором у населения было бы право голоса в их коллективной судьбе. 对他们来说，这意味着美国所宣称的使命失败，即帮助在这里建立一个相对公正、平等的政府，让民众能够参与他们的共同命运。 Afghans were telling me, but look at how this government that you people are supporting is treating us. 阿富汗人|他们|告诉|我|但是|看|在|多么|这个|政府|那个|你们|人|正在|支持|正在|对待|我们阿富汗人告诉我，但看看你们支持的这个政府是如何对待我们的。 And so I came, quite quickly, to recognize that this issue is what was driving people back into the arms of the Taliban. 而且|所以|我|来到|相当|快速地|去|认识到|那|这个|问题|是|什么|是|驱动|人们|回|到|这个|怀抱|的|塔利班| И поэтому я довольно быстро пришел к выводу, что именно эта проблема толкает людей обратно в объятия талибов. 因此，我很快意识到，这个问题正是驱使人们重新投向塔利班的原因。

BILL MOYERS: Corruption was driving them? 比尔|莫耶斯|腐败|是|驱动|他们比尔·莫耶斯：腐败在驱动他们吗？

SARAH CHAYES: Corruption. 萨拉|查耶斯|腐败莎拉·查耶斯：腐败。 And so, what I did was go to a variety of different countries and found that corrupt government was driving just about every world crisis you could name, including the environmental crisis, including mass migration, including a lot of civil strife. 而且|所以|什么|我|做|是|去|到|一个|多样|的|不同|国家|和|发现|那|腐败的|政府|是|驱动|仅仅|大约|每个|世界|危机|你|能|命名|包括|这个|环境|危机|包括|大规模|移民|包括|很多|大量|的|内部|纷争 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||conflit civil 所以，我所做的是去不同的国家，发现腐败的政府几乎驱动了你能想到的每一个世界危机，包括环境危机、大规模迁移以及许多内乱。 So, I felt as though focusing on anything else is almost derivative. 所以|我|感觉|像|虽然|专注|在|任何事|其他|是|几乎|衍生的 |||||||||||dérivé Итак, я чувствовал, что сосредоточение внимания на чем-то еще - это почти что производное. 所以，我觉得关注其他任何事情几乎都是派生的。

BILL MOYERS: What you found was that people were indignant at their own government's corruption, and America's role in enabling it. 比尔|莫耶斯|什么|你|发现|是|那|人们|过去时|愤怒的|对|他们的|自己的|政府的|腐败|和|美国的|角色|在|使得|它 |||||||||indigné||||||||||permettre| 比尔·莫耶斯：你发现人们对自己政府的腐败感到愤慨，以及美国在其中的角色。

SARAH CHAYES: That is exactly correct. 萨拉|查耶斯|那|是|正确的|正确的莎拉·查耶斯：完全正确。 We are living in an unprecedented period of indignation against systemic corruption. 我们|正在|生活|在|一个|前所未有的|时期|的|愤怒|对于|系统性的|腐败 ||||||||indignation||| 我们正生活在一个前所未有的对系统性腐败的愤慨时期。 Unprecedented. 前所未有的前所未有。 If I named all of the revolutions around the world, you know, it would take the rest of our hour, including the Arab Spring, including Ukraine, including South Korea, including Lebanon repeatedly, including a variety of Latin American countries. 如果|我|命名|所有|的|这些|革命|在周围|这些|世界|你|知道|它|将会|花费|剩下的|剩余|的|我们的|小时|包括|这些|阿拉伯|春天|包括|乌克兰|包括|南|韩国|包括|黎巴嫩|一再|包括|一种|多样|的|拉丁|美洲|国家 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||Liban|||||||| Если бы я назвал все революции в мире, вы знаете, это заняло бы остаток нашего часа, включая «арабскую весну», в том числе Украину, в том числе Южную Корею, в том числе неоднократно Ливан, в том числе множество стран Латинской Америки. 如果我列举世界各地的所有革命，你知道，这将占用我们剩下的一个小时，包括阿拉伯之春，包括乌克兰，包括韩国，包括黎巴嫩的多次革命，包括各种拉丁美洲国家的革命。 And there is a systemically corrupt government in all of the Gulf nations, but certainly Saudi Arabia. 而且|有|是|一个|系统性地|腐败的|政府|在|所有|的|这些|海湾|国家|但是|肯定|沙特|阿拉伯 ||||systématiquement corrompu|||||||||||| И есть системно коррумпированные правительства во всех странах Персидского залива, но, конечно, в Саудовской Аравии. 所有海湾国家都有一个系统性腐败的政府，但沙特阿拉伯尤其如此。 And we have been married, the United States has been married to enabling and reinforcing the Saudi Arabian government for decades. 而且|我们|有|一直|结婚|这些|美国|国家|有|一直|结婚|对于|使能|和|加强|这些|沙特|阿拉伯|政府|为了|几十年 ||||||||||||||renforcer|||saoudien||| 几十年来，美国一直在支持和强化沙特阿拉伯政府。 And yet I have rarely seen an example of a genuine reformer capitalizing on the indignation to bring the country in question to a more just and equitable situation governed by public integrity first. 而且|然而|我|已经|很少|见过|一个|例子|的|一个|真正的|改革者|利用|在|这些|愤怒|去|带来|这些|国家|在|问题|到|一个|更|公正的|和|公平的|情况|由治理|通过|公众|诚信|首先 ||||||||||authentique|réformateur|capitalisant|||||||||||||||équitable|||||| И все же я редко видел пример того, как настоящий реформатор извлекает выгоду из возмущения, чтобы привести страну к более справедливой и равноправной ситуации, управляемой прежде всего общественной честностью. 然而，我很少看到真正的改革者利用愤怒来使相关国家走向一个更公正和公平的局面，首先由公共诚信来治理。 Instead I find that demagogues or the kleptocratic network itself almost everywhere are gaining the benefit of these reactions. 反而|我|发现|那|民粹主义者|或者|这个|盗贼的|网络|本身|几乎|到处|是|获得|这个|好处|的|这些|反应 ||||démagogues|||kleptocratique||||||||||| 相反，我发现民粹主义者或掠夺性网络几乎在任何地方都在利用这些反应的好处。

BILL MOYERS: You say in ON CORRUPTION IN AMERICA: AND WHAT IS AT STAKE, “It's not an isolated scandal or even a whole stack of them. 比尔|莫耶斯|你|说|在|关于|腐败|在|美国|和|什么|是|在|风险|它是|不|一个|孤立的|丑闻|或者|甚至|一|整个|堆|的|它们 |||||||||||||ce qui est en jeu|||||scandale|||||pile|| БИЛЛ МОЙЕРС: Вы говорите в «О КОРРУПЦИИ В АМЕРИКЕ: И О ЧЕМ СТОИТ СТАВКА»: «Это не единичный скандал или даже целая их череда. 比尔·莫耶斯：你在《美国的腐败：以及面临的风险》中说，“这不是一个孤立的丑闻，甚至不是一堆丑闻。” It's the operating system of sophisticated and astonishingly successful kleptocratic networks.” And you compare these networks to the Hydra – the creature with the body of a serpent and eight mortal heads and a ninth head that was immortal and lived forever. 它是|这个|操作|系统|的|复杂的|和|令人惊讶地|成功的|盗贼的|网络|而且|你|比较|这些|网络|到|这个|九头蛇|这个|生物|有|这个|身体|的|一|蛇|和|八|凡人的|头|和|一个|第九|头|那个|是|不死的|和|生活|永远 |||||||étonnamment||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Это операционная система сложных и удивительно успешных клептократических сетей ». И вы сравниваете эти сети с Гидрой - существом с телом змея, восемью смертными головами и девятой головой, которое было бессмертным и жило вечно. 这是一个复杂且令人惊讶地成功的掠夺性网络的操作系统。”你将这些网络比作九头蛇——一种有着蛇身和八个凡人头颅的生物，还有一个永生的头。 Why the Hydra? 为什么|这个|九头蛇为什么是九头蛇？

SARAH CHAYES: We're going back to mythology or sacred stories. 萨拉|查耶斯|我们正在|去|回|到|神话|或者|神圣的|故事 ||||||mythologie||| 莎拉·查耶斯：我们要回到神话或神圣故事中。 So, the Hydra is an analogy for these networks for two important reasons. 所以|这个|九头蛇|是|一个|类比|对于|这些|网络|对于|两个|重要的|原因 |||||analogie||||||| 所以，九头蛇是这些网络的一个类比，原因有两个重要。 One is: those heads appear to be separate snakes. 一个|是|那些|头|看起来|要|是|分开的|蛇一个是：那些头看起来像是独立的蛇。 When you look at one or look at the other, it's a very scary snake doing its own thing, but they're joined to a single body. 当|你|看|在|一个|或者|看|在|另一个||它是|一条|非常|可怕的|蛇|做|它的|自己的|事情|但是|它们是|连接的|到|一个|单一的|身体当你看一个或看另一个时，它都是一条非常可怕的蛇在做自己的事情，但它们连接在一个身体上。 So, it really helped illustrate the idea that it's not one individual or one actor doing something wrong. 所以|它|真的|帮助|阐明|这个|想法|这个|它是|不是|一个|个人|或者|一个|行动者|做|某事|错误所以，这确实帮助说明了一个观点，那就是并不是某个个人或某个行为者在做错事。 Rather, they're acting to the benefit of this larger network. 相反|他们是|行动|为了|这个|利益|的|这个|更大的|网络 |ils agissent|||||||| 相反，他们是在为这个更大的网络的利益而行动。 And we should never forget that as much as we have to look at, how did this individual benefit from his or her political office? 而且|我们|应该|从不|忘记|那|尽管|多|如同|我们|有|去|看|在|如何|做|这个|个人|受益|从|他的|或者|她的|政治|职位我们永远不应该忘记，尽管我们必须关注，这个个人是如何从他或她的政治职位中获益的？ How did Ivanka Trump? 如何|做|伊万卡|特朗普 ||Ivanka Trump| 伊万卡·特朗普是如何获益的？ How did Mr. DeJoy? 怎么|助动词|先生|德乔德乔先生怎么样？ How did, you know– what we do have to bear in mind is that the transactional nature of the wrongful acts is not necessarily direct. 怎么|助动词|你|知道|什么|我们|助动词|有|必须|忍受|在|心中|是|那|这个|交易的|本质|的|这些|错误的|行为|是|不|必然|直接的 |||||||||||||||transactionnel||||illicites||||| 我们必须记住，错误行为的交易性质不一定是直接的。 US law commands us to look for a quid pro quo, but often the return comes later. 美国|法律|命令|我们|去|看|寻找|一个|交换|为|代价|但是|经常|这个|回报|来|后来 ||||||||quoi|||||||| 美国法律要求我们寻找对价，但回报往往会在之后出现。 So, I might bend a rule that I might never benefit from, but this other member of the network then benefits. 所以|我|可能|弯曲|一条|规则|那|我|可能|从不|受益|从|但是|这个|其他|成员|的|这个|网络|然后|受益所以，我可能会违反一条我自己永远不会受益的规则，但这个网络中的其他成员却受益了。 You can't call that a quid pro quo, but that's how the Hydra operates. 你|不能|叫|那个|一个|交换|为|交换|但是|那是|如何|这个|九头蛇|运作你不能称之为以物易物，但这就是九头蛇的运作方式。 And so, that's why corruption is a deeper and more general phenomenon. 而且|所以|那是|为什么|腐败|是|一个|更深|和|更|普遍|现象所以，这就是为什么腐败是一个更深层次和更普遍的现象。 The other aspect that's really critically important is that even the mortal heads, when you whack one off, two more grow. 这个|其他|方面|那是|真正|关键|重要|是|那|甚至|这些|凡人|头|当|你|砍|一个|掉|两个|更多|生长 |||||||||||||||couper||||| 另一个非常重要的方面是，即使是凡人首领，当你砍掉一个时，两个会再长出来。 Too often, not always, but too often when I have looked at anti-corruption insurrections overseas, I see a fixation on the one individual or his or her family who seems to personify the corrupt system. 太|常常|不|总是|但是|太|常常|当|我|有|看过|在|||起义|海外|我|看到|一个|固执|在|这个|一个|个人|或者|他的|或者|她的|家族|谁|似乎|去|体现|这个|腐败|体系 ||||||||||||||insurrections|||||fixation|||||||||||||incarner||| 太多时候，虽然不是总是，但太多时候，当我观察海外的反腐败起义时，我看到对那个似乎代表腐败系统的个人或他/她的家庭的执着。 And it never works. 和|它|从不|有效而且它从来没有奏效。 Look at Guatemala. 看|向|危地马拉 ||Guatemala 看看危地马拉。 Look at Egypt. 看|向|埃及看看埃及。 Look at even Tunisia. 看|向|甚至|突尼斯甚至看看突尼斯。 So many of these anti-corruption uprisings, the government tumbles, the government comes down, but the network is able to generate a new head, which immediately takes the place of the old one. 所以|很多|的|这些|||起义|政府|政府|倒台|政府|政府|来到|下|但是|网络|网络|是|能够|去|产生|一个|新的|头|这|立即|取代|旧的|地方|的|旧的|旧|一个这么多反腐败的起义，政府倒台，政府下台，但网络能够产生一个新的头目，立即取代旧的头目。 So, for Americans, I would urge all of us, as outraged, disgusted, offended as many of us may be by the lengths to which President Trump and many of those around them have brought the misuse of the public trust for personal gain, as outraged as we may be about that, we must not fool ourselves that by getting rid of this individual or this administration, we will solve the problem. 所以|对于|美国人|我|将会|劝告|所有|的|我们|像|愤怒的|厌恶的|受冒犯的|像|许多|的|我们|可能|是|由于|这种|程度|去|这|总统|特朗普|和|许多|的|那些|周围|他们|有|带来|这种|滥用|的|公共||信任|为了|个人的|利益|像|愤怒的|像|我们|可能|是|关于|那个|我们|必须|不|欺骗|我们自己|这个|通过|摆脱|摆脱|的|这个|个人|或者|这个|政府|我们|将|解决|这个|问题 |||||||||||||||||||||longueurs||||||||||||||mésusage||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| 所以，对于美国人，我想对我们所有人说，尽管我们中的许多人对特朗普总统及其周围许多人滥用公众信任以谋取个人利益的行为感到愤怒、厌恶和冒犯，尽管我们可能对此感到愤怒，但我们不能自欺欺人，以为通过摆脱这个个人或这个政府，我们就能解决问题。 And the problem is the Midas disease. 而且|这个|问题|是|这个|迈达斯|疾病 |||||Midas| 而问题就是米达斯病。 When you have the Midas disease it's that you're so infatuated with money that you convert everything that's sacred, meaning our earth, the land, what's on the land, what's under the land, human creativity, human labor, love, relationships. 当|你|有|这个|迈达斯|疾病|它是|这|你是|如此|着迷的|对|钱|以至于|你|转化|一切|那些是|神圣的|意味着|我们的|地球|这片|土地|什么是|在|这片|土地|什么是|在下面|这片|土地|人类|创造力|人类|劳动|爱|关系 ||||||||||fou amoureux||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Lorsque vous avez la maladie de Midas, c'est que vous êtes tellement infatué par l'argent que vous convertissez tout ce qui est sacré, c'est-à-dire notre terre, le sol, ce qu'il y a sur le sol, ce qu'il y a sous le sol, la créativité humaine, le travail humain, l'amour, les relations. Когда у вас болезнь Мидаса, вы настолько увлечены деньгами, что конвертируете все священное, то есть нашу землю, землю, то, что находится на земле, что находится под землей, человеческое творчество, человеческий труд, любовь, отношения. 当你有米达斯病时，你对金钱如此着迷，以至于你把一切神圣的东西都转化为金钱，这意味着我们的地球、土地、土地上的东西、土地下的东西、人类创造力、人类劳动、爱、关系。 You monetize all of that. 你|变现|所有|的|那些 |monétiser||| Vous monétisez tout cela. 你将所有这些变现。 And when a society is struck by the epidemic of Midas disease, what it means is that money becomes the chief source of social standing. 而且|当|一个|社会|被|打击|由|这个|流行病|的|米达斯|病|什么|它|意味着|是|这|钱|变成|主要|主要|来源|的|社会|地位 |||||frappé||||||||||||||||||| Et lorsqu'une société est frappée par l'épidémie de maladie de Midas, cela signifie que l'argent devient la principale source de statut social. 当一个社会受到米达斯病的影响时，这意味着金钱成为社会地位的主要来源。 And that's a huge conversion. 而且|那是|一个|巨大的|转变这是一种巨大的转变。 It's no longer your honor, or your courage or your wisdom or your ability to play beautiful music. 它是|不|再|你的|荣誉|或者|你的|勇气|或者|你的|智慧|或者|你的|能力|去|演奏|美丽的|音乐 Это уже не ваша честь, не ваша смелость, не ваша мудрость или не ваша способность играть красивую музыку. 不再是你的荣誉、勇气、智慧或演奏美妙音乐的能力。 You're not honored by society for that as much as you are honored for accumulating money. 你不是|不|被尊重|由|社会|因为|那个|像|多|一样|你|是|被尊重|因为|积累|钱 Общество не чествует вас за это так же, как за то, что вы копите деньги. 社会并没有因为这个而尊重你，反而是因为你积累了财富而受到尊重。 And the danger of that is, it's a race with no finish line. 而且|这个|危险|的|那个|是|它是|一场|竞赛|带有|没有|终点|线 И опасность в том, что это гонка без финиша. 这样做的危险在于，这是一场没有终点的比赛。 Bill, you have $3 million in your bank account. 比尔|你|有|百万|在|你的|银行|账户比尔，你的银行账户里有300万美元。 You've got 3 million. 你有|得到|百万你有300万。 How many zeroes is that? 怎么|多|零|是|那个 ||zéros|| 那是多少个零？ Three followed by, you know, this number of zeros. 三|跟随|在后面|你|知道|这个|数字|的|零三个后面跟着，你知道的，这个数量的零。 I better get a four ahead of my zeros because I otherwise I'm not better than you. 我|更好|得到|一个|四|在前面|的|我的|零|因为|我|否则|我是|不|更好|比|你 Мне лучше поставить четверку впереди моих нулей, потому что иначе я не лучше тебя. 我最好在我的零前面加一个四，因为否则我就不比你强了。 And so it becomes this race and then it leads to preposterous extremes where you've got the current secretary of commerce, Wilbur Ross, you know, who lied to Forbes magazine about how many zeros he had, you know, I mean, really? 而且|所以|它|变成|这个|竞赛|和|然后|它|导致|到|荒谬的|极端|在那里|你有|得到|这个|现任|秘书|的|商务|威尔伯|罗斯|你|知道|谁|撒谎|对|福布斯|杂志|关于|多|多|零|他|有|你|知道|我|意思是|真的 |||||||||||absurde||||||||||Wilbur Ross|Ross|||||||||||||||||| Итак, это становится этой гонкой, а затем приводит к абсурдным крайностям, когда у вас есть нынешний министр торговли, Уилбур Росс, вы знаете, который солгал журналу Forbes о том, сколько у него нулей, понимаете, я имею в виду, на самом деле? 所以这变成了一场比赛，然后导致荒谬的极端情况，比如现在的商务部长威尔伯·罗斯，你知道，他对《福布斯》杂志撒谎说他有多少个零，你知道，我是说，真的？ Really? 真的吗？ Like, we've descended to this? 我们真的沦落到这个地步了吗？ And the problem is that once a society is in the grip of that kind of a pandemic, the money hoarders organize themselves into a coalition in order to bend the rules of the game to ensure that they can keep competing with each other about more zeros, that, that the flow of money goes to them. 问题在于，一旦一个社会陷入这种大流行，囤积财富的人就会组织成一个联盟，以便改变游戏规则，确保他们可以继续在更多的零上竞争，确保资金流向他们。 And that's how you get systemic corruption. 这就是系统性腐败的产生方式。

BILL MOYERS: And as you say, it is not a partisan casino, it's run by both parties. 比尔|莫耶斯|而且|正如|你|说|它|是|不|一个|党派的|赌场|它是|经营|由|两个|政党 БИЛЛ МОЙЕРС: И, как вы сказали, это не партизанское казино, им управляют обе стороны. 比尔·莫耶斯：正如你所说，这不是一个党派赌场，它由两个党派共同管理。

SARAH CHAYES: Yes. 萨拉|查耶斯|是的莎拉·查耶斯：是的。 The virulence of the political battle can camouflage the identity of interests across that political divide among the meat hogs. 这个|恶性|的|这场|政治|战斗|可以|掩盖|这|身份|的|利益|跨越|那个|政治|分歧|在中|这些|肉|猪 |virulence||||||camouflage||||||||||||porcs 政治斗争的激烈程度可以掩盖在政治分歧中利益的身份，尤其是在肉类利益集团之间。

BILL MOYERS: And by meat hogs, you mean? 比尔|莫耶斯|而且|通过|肉|猪|你|意思是 |||||porcs de viande|| 比尔·莫耶斯：你所说的肉类利益集团是指什么？

SARAH CHAYES: The plutocracy. Sarah|Chayes|这个|富豪统治 |||ploutocratie 萨拉·查耶斯：富豪统治。 You know, the plutocracy, the integrated network of government officials and top private wealth maximizers that are in this web where they switch places frequently, they rig this system to serve the interests of this network rather than the public interest. 你|知道|这个|富豪统治|这个|整合的|网络|的|政府|官员|和|顶级|私人|财富|最大化者|那些|是|在|这个|网|在那里|他们|切换|地方|经常|他们|操纵|这个|系统|为了|服务|这个|利益|的|这个|网络|而不是|而是|这个|公众|利益 ||||||||||||||maximisateurs de richesse||||||||||||manipulent|||||||||||||| 你知道，富豪统治，是一个由政府官员和顶级私人财富最大化者组成的综合网络，他们在这个网络中频繁互换位置，他们操控这个系统以服务于这个网络的利益，而不是公众的利益。

BILL MOYERS: I was struck when President Trump delivered his acceptance speech of the nomination at the White House and the camera panned down to the crowd. Bill|Moyers|我|是|震惊|当|总统|Trump|发表|他的|接受|演讲|的|这个|提名|在|这个|白|宅邸|和|这个|摄像机|移动|向下|到|这个|人群 ||||frappé||||||||||nomination||||||||balayé|||| БИЛЛ МОЙЕРС: Я был поражен, когда президент Трамп произнес в Белом доме свою благодарственную речь о выдвижении своей кандидатуры, и камера повернулась к толпе. 比尔·莫耶斯：当特朗普总统在白宫发表他的提名接受演讲时，我被深深打动，镜头扫向人群。 The very first row was one plutocrat, one fat cat after another, right there looking very, very, very much at home. 第一|非常|第一|排|是|一个|富豪|一个|胖|猫|之后|另一个|正好|在那里|看起来|非常|非常|非常|多|在|家里 |||rang|||ploutocrate|||||||||||||| В самом первом ряду был один плутократ, один толстый кот за другим, прямо там выглядевшие очень, очень, очень как дома. 第一排就是一个富豪，一个又一个的富人，坐在那里，看起来非常、非常、非常自在。 And in the back of them were the quote so-called ordinary people. 和|在|这些|后面|的|他们|是|这些|引用|||普通|人们在他们的背后是所谓的普通人。 It was the marriage, symbolically, of what you write about in the book, plutocracy and populism. 这|是|这个|婚姻|象征性地|的|什么|你|写|关于|在|这本|书|富豪统治|和|民粹主义 ||||symboliquement|||||||||||populisme 这象征性地代表了你在书中写到的，富豪政治和民粹主义的结合。 You appeal to the populists, the everyday people who are angry at a risk system that's rigged, but the very people rigging the system are sitting there at the head of the line. 你|吸引|向|这些|民粹主义者|这些|每天|人们|谁|是|生气|对|一个|风险|系统|那个是|被操控|但是|这些|这些|人们|操控|这个|系统|是|坐着|那里|在|这|头|的|这|队伍 ||||populistes|||||||||||||||||manipulé||||||||||| Вы обращаетесь к популистам, обычным людям, которые недовольны фальсифицированной системой риска, но те самые люди, которые фальсифицируют эту систему, сидят во главе линии. 你呼吁民粹主义者，那些对一个被操控的风险系统感到愤怒的普通人，但操控这个系统的人正坐在队伍的最前面。

SARAH CHAYES: Okay, you've touched on two really deep issues here. SARAH|CHAYES|好的|你已经|触及|在|两个|真正|深刻|问题|这里莎拉·查耶斯：好的，你提到了两个非常深刻的问题。 One is the coalition of meat hogs, if you will, the plutocrats, right? 一个|是|这个|联盟|的|肉|猪|如果|你|愿意|这个|富豪|对吧 ||||||porcs|||||ploutocrates| 一个是肉猪的联盟，如果你愿意的话，就是富豪，对吧？ What is fascinating about that coalition is it's a network. 什么|是|迷人的|关于|那个|联盟|是|它是|一个|网络这个联盟令人着迷的是它是一个网络。 It's a web, right? 它是|一个|网|对吧它是一个网络，对吧？ Of connections among people. 的|连接|在之间|人们是人与人之间的联系。 And what's really deceptive about these networks, these kleptocratic or plutocratic networks, is that they cross all the divides that we commonly use to categorize our society, right? 和|什么是|真的|欺骗性的|关于|这些|网络||掠夺主义的|或者|富豪主义的||是|这|它们|跨越|所有|这些|分界|那些|我们|通常|使用|来|分类|我们的|社会|对吧 ||||||||||ploutocratique||||||||||||||catégoriser||| И что действительно обманчиво в этих сетях, этих клептократических или плутократических сетях, так это то, что они пересекают все границы, которые мы обычно используем для категоризации нашего общества, верно? 这些网络，尤其是这些掠夺性或富豪网络，真正具有欺骗性的是它们跨越了我们通常用来分类社会的所有界限，对吧？ They cross public and private sectors. 它们|跨越|公共|和|私人|部门 |||||secteurs public et privé 它们跨越了公共和私营部门。 So, by having in their coalition, government officials who can wield government powers and access government money, private, big businessmen who monetize authorizations and things like that, who convert sacred values into money. 所以|通过|拥有|在|他们的|联盟|政府|官员|谁|能够|行使|政府|权力|和|获取|政府|钱|私人|大|商人|谁|变现|授权|和|事情|像|那样|谁|转换|神圣|价值|成为|钱 ||||||||||manipuler|||||||||hommes d'affaires|||autorisations|||||||||| 因此，在他们的联盟中，有能够运用政府权力和获取政府资金的政府官员，还有那些将授权和类似事物变现的大型私营企业家，他们将神圣的价值转化为金钱。 I mean, it's an extremely capable coalition. 我|意思是|它是|一个|极其|有能力的|联盟我的意思是，这是一个极其强大的联盟。 It's extremely flexible and adaptable. 它是|极其|灵活的|和|适应的它非常灵活和适应性强。 So that's who you were looking at on the stage and in the front row, right? 所以|那是|谁|你|过去时|看|在|在|这个|舞台|和|在|前排|前|排|对吧所以你在舞台上和前排看的人就是他，对吧？ You've got the symbols of government power, the guy holding them, and you've got the plutocrats and you know, those guys, the moguls in the front row. 你已经|得到|这些|象征|的|政府|权力|这个|家伙|拿着|它们|和|你已经|得到|这些|富豪|和|你|知道|那些|家伙|这些|大亨|在|前|前|排 ||||||||||||||||||||||magnats|||| У вас есть символы государственной власти, парень, держащий их, и у вас есть плутократы, и вы знаете, эти парни, магнаты в первом ряду. 你有政府权力的象征，拿着它的人，还有前排的富豪们，你知道的，那些大亨。

BILL MOYERS: And democracy was supposed to be a check on the unbridled power of money. 比尔|莫耶斯|而且|民主|过去时|应该|去|是|一个|制衡|对|这个|不受限制的|权力|的|钱 ||||||||||||débridé||| 比尔·莫耶斯：民主本应是对金钱不受限制权力的制衡。

SARAH CHAYES: Absolutely. 莎拉·查耶斯：绝对是的。 But what you are seeing when you describe that crowd with the sort of ordinary folks who are revolted against the rigged system, somehow allying themselves with this very same rigged system, what you see is an expert manipulation of identity divides, and that it is the most powerful tool that kleptocratic networks use worldwide. 但是当你描述那群普通人对这个被操控的系统感到愤怒，并且以某种方式与这个同样被操控的系统结盟时，你所看到的是对身份分裂的专家操控，而这正是全球掠夺性网络使用的最强大工具。 Lebanon is a really stark example, but it's exactly what's happening here too, which is you appeal to people on an identity level. 黎巴嫩是一个非常明显的例子，但这里发生的事情也是如此，你是在以身份层面来吸引人们。 And if you make that appeal strong and effective enough, you actually overpower their indignation at the rigged system, or you deflect it. 如果你让这种吸引力足够强大和有效，你实际上会压倒他们对这个被操控系统的愤慨，或者你会转移他们的注意力。 You say who's rigging the system isn't us billionaires. 你|说|谁|操纵|这个|系统|不是|我们|亿万富翁你说操纵系统的人不是我们这些亿万富翁。 It's those educated people like, you know, it's the, it's the main stream, the lame stream media people. 这是|那些|受过教育的|人|像|你|知道|这是|这个||这个||媒体|||||人 ||||||||||||||nul||| 是那些受过教育的人，比如说，主流媒体的人。 It's people with who have advanced degrees. 这是|人|拥有|谁|有|高级|学位是那些拥有高级学位的人。 You know, you're appealing to the resentment of the two thirds of the country that don't have a college degree, for example, who frankly have been treated with some contempt by the professional classes. 你|知道|你在|吸引|向|这个|愤怒|的|这个|两|三分之二|的|这个|国家|那些|不|有|一个|大学|学位|例如|例子|谁|坦率地|有|被|对待|以|一些|轻视|被|这个|职业|阶层 |||attrayant|||ressentiment|||||||||||||||||||||||mépris|||| 你知道，你是在迎合全国三分之二没有大学学位的人的怨恨，他们坦率地说，受到了专业阶层的轻视。 And you activate that and you divert their indignation at rigged system against the professional classes while you laugh all the way to the bank. 和|你|激活|那个|和|你|转移|他们的|愤怒|对|被操控的|系统|针对|这些|职业|阶层|当|你|笑|所有|这|路|到|这|银行 ||||||divertir|||||||||||||||||| 你激活这个，然后把他们对操控系统的愤怒转移到专业阶层上，同时你一路笑着走向银行。

BILL MOYERS: It's also a fact that both political parties in the eighties and nineties failed the people you are talking about. 比尔|莫耶斯|这也是|也|一个|事实|那|两个|政治|党派|在|这|八十年代|和|九十年代|失败|这些|人们|你|是|谈论|关于 ||||||||||||années quatre-vingt||années quatre-vingt-dix||||||| 比尔·莫耶斯：八十年代和九十年代，两个政党都辜负了你所说的那些人。

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