Part 4. Chapter 10. Bölüm 4. Bölüm 10.

Pestsov liked thrashing an argument out to the end, and was not satisfied with Sergey Ivanovitch's words, especially as he felt the injustice of his view. Pestsov aimait débattre jusqu'au bout et n'était pas satisfait des paroles de Sergey Ivanovitch, d'autant plus qu'il ressentait l'injustice de son point de vue. "I did not mean," he said over the soup, addressing Alexey Alexandrovitch, "mere density of population alone, but in conjunction with fundamental ideas, and not by means of principles." "Je ne voulais pas dire", dit-il au cours de la soupe, s'adressant à Alexey Alexandrovitch, "une simple densité de population uniquement, mais en conjonction avec des idées fondamentales, et non au moyen de principes." “我的意思不是，”他边喝汤边对阿列克谢·亚历山德罗维奇说，“仅仅是人口密度，而是与基本思想相结合，而不是通过原则。” "It seems to me," Alexey Alexandrovitch said languidly, and with no haste, "that that's the same thing. In my opinion, influence over another people is only possible to the people which has the higher development, which…" 在我看来，只有发展程度更高的人才有可能影响另一个人，这……” "But that's just the question," Pestsov broke in in his bass. "Mais c'est juste la question", intervint Pestsov dans sa basse. He was always in a hurry to speak, and seemed always to put his whole soul into what he was saying. He was always in a hurry to speak, and seemed always to put his whole soul into what he was saying. 他说话总是急于求成，而且似乎总是全神贯注于他所说的话。 "In what are we to make higher development consist? «En quoi devons-nous faire du développement supérieur? “我们要使更高的发展在于什么？ The English, the French, the Germans, which is at the highest stage of development? Anglai, prancūzai, vokiečiai, kurie yra aukščiausiame vystymosi etape? Which of them will nationalize the other? 他们中的哪一个会将另一个收归国有？ We see the Rhine provinces have been turned French, but the Germans are not at a lower stage!" 我们看到莱茵河省份已经变成了法国人，但德国人的地位并不低！” he shouted. "There is another law at work there." "I fancy that the greater influence is always on the side of true civilization," said Alexey Alexandrovitch, slightly lifting his eyebrows. "Je pense que la plus grande influence est toujours du côté de la vraie civilisation", a déclaré Alexey Alexandrovitch en haussant légèrement les sourcils. “我想更大的影响总是在真正文明的一边，”阿列克谢·亚历山德罗维奇微微扬起眉毛说。 "But what are we to lay down as the outward signs of true civilization?" «Mais que devons-nous présenter comme les signes extérieurs de la vraie civilisation? “但是我们要放下什么作为真正文明的外在标志呢？” said Pestsov.

"I imagine such signs are generally very well known," said Alexey Alexandrovitch. “我想这些标志通常是众所周知的，”Alexey Alexandrovitch 说。 "But are they fully known?" "But are they fully known?" “但是他们完全知道吗？” Sergey Ivanovitch put in with a subtle smile. 谢尔盖·伊万诺维奇带着微妙的微笑插了进来。 "It is the accepted view now that real culture must be purely classical; but we see most intense disputes on each side of the question, and there is no denying that the opposite camp has strong points in its favor." "Il est maintenant admis que la vraie culture doit être purement classique; mais nous voyons les différends les plus intenses de chaque côté de la question, et il est indéniable que le camp opposé a des points forts en sa faveur." “现在公认的观点是，真正的文化必须是纯粹的古典文化；但我们在问题的每一方都看到了最激烈的争论，而且不可否认的是，对立阵营也有自己的优势。” "You are for classics, Sergey Ivanovitch. Will you take red wine?" said Stepan Arkadyevitch.

"I am not expressing my own opinion of either form of culture," Sergey Ivanovitch said, holding out his glass with a smile of condescension, as to a child. “我对这两种文化都没有发表自己的看法，”谢尔盖·伊万诺维奇说，他举起酒杯，带着屈尊的微笑，就像对待孩子一样。 "I only say that both sides have strong arguments to support them," he went on, addressing Alexey Alexandrovitch. "My sympathies are classical from education, but in this discussion I am personally unable to arrive at a conclusion. I see no distinct grounds for classical studies being given a preeminence over scientific studies." Je ne vois aucune raison distincte de donner aux études classiques une prééminence sur les études scientifiques. " 我看不出有什么明显的理由可以让古典研究优先于科学研究。” "The natural sciences have just as great an educational value," put in Pestsov. “自然科学具有同样重要的教育价值，”佩斯佐夫说。 "Take astronomy, take botany, or zoology with its system of general principles." “以天文学、植物学或动物学及其一般原理系统为例。” "I cannot quite agree with that," responded Alexey Alexandrovitch "It seems to me that one must admit that the very process of studying the forms of language has a peculiarly favorable influence on intellectual development. "Je ne peux pas tout à fait être d'accord avec cela", a répondu Alexey Alexandrovitch "Il me semble qu'il faut admettre que le processus même d'étude des formes de langage a une influence particulièrement favorable sur le développement intellectuel. “我不太同意这一点，”阿列克谢·亚历山德罗维奇回答说，“在我看来，人们必须承认，研究语言形式的过程本身对智力发展有着特别有利的影响。 Moreover, it cannot be denied that the influence of the classical authors is in the highest degree moral, while, unfortunately, with the study of the natural sciences are associated the false and noxious doctrines which are the curse of our day." De plus, on ne peut nier que l'influence des auteurs classiques est au plus haut degré morale, tandis que, malheureusement, à l'étude des sciences naturelles sont associées les doctrines fausses et nocives qui sont la malédiction de nos jours. " 此外，不可否认的是，古典作家的影响在很大程度上是道德的，而不幸的是，与自然科学的研究相关联的是错误和有害的学说，这些学说是我们这个时代的诅咒。” Sergey Ivanovitch would have said something, but Pestsov interrupted him in his rich bass. 谢尔盖·伊万诺维奇想说些什么，但佩斯佐夫用浑厚的低音打断了他。 He began warmly contesting the justice of this view. 他开始热烈地争论这种观点的正义性。 Sergey Ivanovitch waited serenely to speak, obviously with a convincing reply ready.

"But," said Sergey Ivanovitch, smiling subtly, and addressing Karenin, "One must allow that to weigh all the advantages and disadvantages of classical and scientific studies is a difficult task, and the question which form of education was to be preferred would not have been so quickly and conclusively decided if there had not been in favor of classical education, as you expressed it just now, its moral—disons le mot—anti-nihilist influence." "Mais", a déclaré Sergey Ivanovitch, souriant subtilement et s'adressant à Karénine, "Il faut admettre que peser tous les avantages et inconvénients des études classiques et scientifiques est une tâche difficile, et la question de savoir quelle forme d'éducation devait être préférée ne serait pas ont été si rapidement et définitivement décidés s'il n'y avait pas eu en faveur de l'éducation classique, comme vous l'avez dit tout à l'heure, son influence morale - disons le mot - anti-nihiliste. " 'Maar', zei Sergey Ivanovitch, subtiel glimlachend en tot Karenin toe gericht, 'je moet toestaan dat het afwegen van alle voor- en nadelen van klassieke en wetenschappelijke studies een moeilijke taak is, en de vraag welke vorm van onderwijs de voorkeur verdient, zou niet zijn zo snel en overtuigend beslist als er geen voorstander was geweest van klassiek onderwijs, zoals u het zojuist hebt uitgedrukt, de morele - disons le mot - anti-nihilistische invloed. ' "Undoubtedly." "If it had not been for the distinctive property of anti-nihilistic influence on the side of classical studies, we should have considered the subject more, have weighed the arguments on both sides," said Sergey Ivanovitch with a subtle smile, "we should have given elbow-room to both tendencies. "If it had not been for the distinctive property of anti-nihilistic influence on the side of classical studies, we should have considered the subject more, have weighed the arguments on both sides," said Sergey Ivanovitch with a subtle smile, "we should have given elbow-room to both tendencies. "S'il n'y avait pas eu la propriété distinctive de l'influence anti-nihiliste du côté des études classiques, nous aurions dû réfléchir davantage au sujet, avoir pesé les arguments des deux côtés", a déclaré Sergey Ivanovitch avec un sourire subtil, "nous aurions dû ont donné une marge de manœuvre aux deux tendances. “如果不是因为古典研究方面反虚无主义影响的独特性质，我们应该更多地考虑这个主题，权衡双方的论点，”谢尔盖伊万诺维奇带着微妙的微笑说，“我们应该为这两种倾向提供了活动空间。 But now we know that these little pills of classical learning possess the medicinal property of anti-nihilism, and we boldly prescribe them to our patients…. 但是现在我们知道这些经学小药丸具有反虚无主义的药性，我们大胆地开给我们的病人……。 But what if they had no such medicinal property?" 但如果它们没有这种药性呢？” he wound up humorously. il a fini avec humour.

At Sergey Ivanovitch's little pills, everyone laughed; Turovtsin in especial roared loudly and jovially, glad at last to have found something to laugh at, all he ever looked for in listening to conversation. 看到谢尔盖·伊万诺维奇的小药丸，大家都笑了。特别是 Turovtsin 大声而愉快地咆哮着，很高兴终于找到了可以笑的东西，这是他在倾听谈话时所寻求的一切。 Stepan Arkadyevitch had not made a mistake in inviting Pestsov. With Pestsov intellectual conversation never flagged for an instant. Avec Pestsov, la conversation intellectuelle n'a jamais été signalée un instant. 与 Pestsov 的智力对话从未中断过。 Directly Sergey Ivanovitch had concluded the conversation with his jest, Pestsov promptly started a new one.

"I can't agree even," said he, "that the government had that aim. „Aš net negaliu sutikti, - pasakė jis, - kad vyriausybė turėjo tokį tikslą. The government obviously is guided by abstract considerations, and remains indifferent to the influence its measures may exercise. The education of women, for instance, would naturally be regarded as likely to be harmful, but the government opens schools and universities for women." The education of women, for instance, would naturally be regarded as likely to be harmful, but the government opens schools and universities for women." L'éducation des femmes, par exemple, serait naturellement considérée comme susceptible d'être préjudiciable, mais le gouvernement ouvre des écoles et des universités pour les femmes. " And the conversation at once passed to the new subject of the education of women. And the conversation at once passed to the new subject of the education of women.

Alexey Alexandrovitch expressed the idea that the education of women is apt to be confounded with the emancipation of women, and that it is only so that it can be considered dangerous. Alexey Alexandrovitch expressed the idea that the education of women is apt to be confounded with the emancipation of women, and that it is only so that it can be considered dangerous. 阿列克谢·亚历山德罗维奇表达了这样一种观点，即女性的教育很容易与女性的解放混为一谈，只有这样才能被认为是危险的。

"I consider, on the contrary, that the two questions are inseparably connected together," said Pestsov; "it is a vicious circle. Woman is deprived of rights from lack of education, and the lack of education results from the absence of rights. La femme est privée de droits par manque d’éducation et le manque d’éducation résulte de l’absence de droits. 妇女因缺乏教育而被剥夺权利，而缺乏教育又是由于权利的缺失。 We must not forget that the subjection of women is so complete, and dates from such ages back that we are often unwilling to recognize the gulf that separates them from us," said he. Mes neturime pamiršti, kad moterų pavaldumas yra toks visiškas ir prasideda nuo tokių amžių, kad dažnai nenorime atpažinti prarajos, skiriančios jas nuo mūsų “, - sakė jis. 我们绝不能忘记，女性的屈从是如此彻底，并且可以追溯到我们常常不愿意承认将她们与我们分开的鸿沟，”他说。 "You said rights," said Sergey Ivanovitch, waiting till Pestsov had finished, "meaning the right of sitting on juries, of voting, of presiding at official meetings, the right of entering the civil service, of sitting in parliament…" "Undoubtedly." "But if women, as a rare exception, can occupy such positions, it seems to me you are wrong in using the expression 'rights.' “但如果女性，作为一个罕见的例外，可以担任这样的职位，在我看来你使用‘权利’这个词是错误的。” It would be more correct to say duties. 说职责更正确。 Every man will agree that in doing the duty of a juryman, a witness, a telegraph clerk, we feel we are performing duties. Tout le monde conviendra qu'en faisant le devoir d'un juré, d'un témoin, d'un télégraphiste, nous sentons que nous remplissons des fonctions. 每个人都会同意，在履行陪审员、证人、电报员的职责时，我们觉得自己在履行职责。 And therefore it would be correct to say that women are seeking duties, and quite legitimately. 因此，说女性正在寻求责任是正确的，而且是完全合法的。 And one can but sympathize with this desire to assist in the general labor of man." 人们只能同情这种协助人类一般劳动的愿望。” "Quite so," Alexey Alexandrovitch assented. "Tout à fait", approuva Alexey Alexandrovitch. “是的，”阿列克谢·亚历山德罗维奇附和道。 "The question, I imagine, is simply whether they are fitted for such duties." “我想，问题很简单，就是他们是否适合担任这样的职责。” "They will most likely be perfectly fitted," said Stepan Arkadyevitch, "when education has become general among them. “他们很可能会非常合身，”斯捷潘·阿尔卡季奇说，“等到他们接受了普遍教育。 We see this…" "How about the proverb?" said the prince, who had a long while been intent on the conversation, his little comical eyes twinkling. dit le prince, qui tenait depuis longtemps la conversation, ses petits yeux comiques pétillants. 王子说，他很长一段时间都专心于谈话，他滑稽的小眼睛闪烁着光芒。 "I can say it before my daughter: her hair is long, because her wit is…" "Just what they thought of the negroes before their emancipation!" «Juste ce qu'ils pensaient des nègres avant leur émancipation! “他们对解放前的黑人是怎么想的！” said Pestsov angrily. 佩斯佐夫生气地说。

"What seems strange to me is that women should seek fresh duties," said Sergey Ivanovitch, "while we see, unhappily, that men usually try to avoid them." «Ce qui me semble étrange, c'est que les femmes devraient chercher de nouveaux devoirs», a déclaré Sergey Ivanovitch, «alors que nous voyons, malheureusement, que les hommes essaient généralement de les éviter». “我觉得奇怪的是，女性应该寻求新的职责，”谢尔盖·伊万诺维奇说，“而不幸的是，我们看到男性通常试图逃避她们。” "Duties are bound up with rights—power, money, honor; those are what women are seeking," said Pestsov. “责任与权利紧密相连——权力、金钱、荣誉；这些都是女性所追求的，”Pestsov 说。 "Just as though I should seek the right to be a wet-nurse and feel injured because women are paid for the work, while no one will take me," said the old prince. "Tout comme si je devais demander le droit d'être nourrice et me sentir blessé parce que les femmes sont payées pour le travail, alors que personne ne m'emmènera", dit le vieux prince. „Lygiai taip pat turėčiau ieškoti teisės būti slaugytoja ir jaustis sužeista, nes moterims už darbą mokama, o manęs niekas nepaims“, - sakė senasis princas. 老王子说：“就好像我应该争取成为一名奶妈的权利，却因为女人有报酬而感到受伤，而没有人愿意接受我。” Turovtsin exploded in a loud roar of laughter and Sergey Ivanovitch regretted that he had not made this comparison. Turovtsin 爆发出一阵大笑，谢尔盖·伊万诺维奇后悔自己没有作这样的比较。 Even Alexey Alexandrovitch smiled. 就连阿列克谢·亚历山德罗维奇也笑了。

"Yes, but a man can't nurse a baby," said Pestsov, "while a woman…" “是的，但是男人不能给孩子喂奶，”Pestsov 说，“而女人……” "No, there was an Englishman who did suckle his baby on board ship," said the old prince, feeling this freedom in conversation permissible before his own daughters. «Non, il y avait un Anglais qui allaitait son bébé à bord du bateau», dit le vieux prince, sentant cette liberté de conversation permise devant ses propres filles. "Ne, buvo anglas, kuris laive žįsdavo savo kūdikį", - sakė senasis princas, jausdamas, kad ši pokalbių laisvė yra leistina prieš jo paties dukteris. “不，确实有一个英国人在船上给他的孩子喂奶，”老王子说，觉得在他自己的女儿面前可以自由交谈。 "There are as many such Englishmen as there would be women officials," said Sergey Ivanovitch. "Il y a autant d'Anglais qu'il y aurait de femmes fonctionnaires", a déclaré Sergey Ivanovitch. “有多少英国人就有多少女官员，”谢尔盖·伊万诺维奇说。 "Yes, but what is a girl to do who has no family?" “是的，但是一个没有家庭的女孩能做什么呢？” put in Stepan Arkadyevitch, thinking of Masha Tchibisova, whom he had had in his mind all along, in sympathizing with Pestsov and supporting him. fit entrer Stepan Arkadyevitch, en pensant à Masha Tchibisova, qu'il avait toujours eu en tête, en sympathisant avec Pestsov et en le soutenant. 斯捷潘·阿尔卡季奇想到了他一直心心念念的玛莎·奇比索娃，同情佩斯佐夫并支持他。

"If the story of such a girl were thoroughly sifted, you would find she had abandoned a family—her own or a sister's, where she might have found a woman's duties," Darya Alexandrovna broke in unexpectedly in a tone of exasperation, probably suspecting what sort of girl Stepan Arkadyevitch was thinking of. «Si l'histoire d'une telle fille était soigneusement passée au crible, vous découvririez qu'elle avait abandonné une famille - la sienne ou celle d'une sœur, où elle aurait peut-être trouvé les devoirs d'une femme», intervint Darya Alexandrovna de façon inattendue sur un ton d'exaspération, soupçonnant probablement à quelle sorte de fille Stépan Arkadyevitch pensait. „Jei tokios merginos istorija būtų kruopščiai atsijota, pamatytumėte, kad ji paliko šeimą - savo ar sesers, kur ji galėjo rasti moters pareigas“, - netikėtai įsidrąsindama įsiveržė Darja Aleksandrovna, turbūt įtardama apie kokią merginą galvojo Stepanas Arkadjevičius. “如果对这样一个女孩的故事进行彻底的筛选，你会发现她抛弃了一个家庭——她自己的或姐妹的，在那里她可能会找到一个女人的职责，”达里娅·亚历山德罗夫娜出乎意料地用恼怒的语气打断了她的话，可能是在怀疑斯捷潘·阿尔卡季奇心目中的姑娘是什么样的人。 "But we take our stand on principle as the ideal," replied Pestsov in his mellow bass. "Mais nous prenons notre position sur le principe comme l'idéal", a répondu Pestsov dans sa basse douce. „Bet mes laikomės principo kaip idealo“, - atsakė Pestsovas švelniu bosu. “但是我们把我们的立场作为理想的原则，”佩斯佐夫用圆润的低音回答道。 "Woman desires to have rights, to be independent, educated. She is oppressed, humiliated by the consciousness of her disabilities." 她因意识到自己的残疾而受到压迫和羞辱。” "And I'm oppressed and humiliated that they won't engage me at the Foundling," the old prince said again, to the huge delight of Turovtsin, who in his mirth dropped his asparagus with the thick end in the sauce. “他们不让我去弃儿会，这让我感到很压抑和羞辱，”老公爵又说了一遍，这让图罗夫钦大为高兴，他高兴地把芦笋的末端沾上了酱汁。