One hundred and twenty:Tibet and the Seal Hunt Einhundertzwanzig:Tibet und die Robbenjagd Ciento veinte: El Tíbet y la caza de focas Cent vingt : Le Tibet et la chasse aux phoques Centoventi: il Tibet e la caccia alle foche 第120回：チベットとアザラシ狩り Sto dwadzieścia: Tybet i polowanie na foki Cento e vinte: o Tibete e a caça às focas Сто двадцать: Тибет и охота на тюленей Yüz yirmi: Tibet ve Fok Avı Сто двадцять: Тибет і полювання на тюленів 第一百二十章：西藏与海豹狩猎 第一百二十章：西藏與海豹狩獵

Mark: Hello again.

Steve: Hi Mark.

Mark: Welcome to the EnglishLingQ Podcast. My dad Steve and I, Steve, are here.

Steve: You know we miss Jill. Sabes que echamos de menos a Jill.

Mark: We do.

Steve: We miss Jill.

Mark: In fact, she usually keeps us organized, so we missed doing the podcast yesterday; a day late, nonetheless. Mark: De hecho, suele mantenernos organizados, así que ayer nos perdimos el podcast, aunque con un día de retraso.

Steve: And she always has a nice, different perspective on things.

Mark: Right.

Steve: But you know what I thought we’d do today Mark, since Jill’s not here, we’ll try to be a little controversial. 史蒂夫：但是你知道我想我们今天会做什么，马克，因为吉尔不在这里，我们会尽量引起一些争议。

Mark: Jill might be coming in this week. Maybe we can grab her for a podcast.

Steve: When she comes in? Steve: ¿Cuándo entra? Well, first of all, we’ll be busy admiring her baby. 好吧，首先，我们会忙着欣赏她的孩子。

Mark: Of course.

Steve: And we may even get the baby to squeal a little bit; a little early in her career, but who knows. Steve: Y puede que incluso consigamos que el bebé chille un poco; un poco pronto en su carrera, pero quién sabe. Стив: И, возможно, мы даже заставим ребенка немного повизжать; немного рано в ее карьере, но кто знает. No, I thought we’d be a little controversial just for fun and, of course, the big news here in the papers is what’s happening to the Olympic Torch.

Mark: Big news aside from the fact that the Vancouver Canucks didn’t make the playoffs. 马克：除了温哥华加人队没有进入季后赛之外，这也是一个大新闻。

Steve: Right, but most people in the world aren’t very interested in hockey.

Mark: I know.

Steve: But no, so the first question I asked myself is given the sort of controversy that we know surrounds the Olympic Games in Beijing; there are all the issues of human rights in Tibet and the smog and so forth, why are they having this around the world Torch Parade? Steve: Pero no, así que la primera pregunta que me hice fue: dada la controversia que rodea a los Juegos Olímpicos de Pekín, los problemas de los derechos humanos en Tíbet, la contaminación, etc., ¿por qué celebran este desfile de antorchas alrededor del mundo? 史蒂夫：但是不，所以我问自己的第一个问题是考虑到我们所知道的围绕北京奥运会的争议；还有西藏的人权问题和雾霾等等，为什么他们要在世界各地举行火炬游行？ It’s almost like they’re inviting. 这几乎就像他们在邀请一样。 I mean what a tremendous opportunity for the Tibetans or any other group to protest.

Mark: Well, I guess, first of all, is this not a standard thing? The torch doesn’t normally tour the world before the Olympics?

Steve: Maybe it does, I don’t know.

Mark: I mean I don’t really know exactly. I can only remember that in the Calgary Winter Olympics the torch was run across Canada. Sólo recuerdo que en los Juegos Olímpicos de Invierno de Calgary la antorcha recorrió Canadá. I don’t think it went…maybe it didn’t go around the world. Maybe normally it just goes through the country in which the Olympics are being held. Puede que normalmente sólo pase por el país en el que se celebran las Olimpiadas.

Steve: I have no idea. I gather they’re planning to take the torch through Tibet… 我推测他们正计划将火炬传递到西藏……

Mark: Yeah, I saw that in the paper.

Steve: …as part of the preparations, so.

Mark: That should be fun.

Steve: I don’t know. Well, certainly, the Chinese are better able to control crowd activities in an area that they control than in San Francisco, London or Paris. 当然，中国人比旧金山、伦敦或巴黎更有能力控制他们控制地区的人群活动。

Mark: Absolutely.

But at the same time they have to let foreign journalists into Tibet or at least they’re saying that they will allow foreign journalists into Tibet to cover the Torch Parade in Tibet, so that ties their hands a little bit. 但同时他们又必须允许外国记者进入西藏，或者至少他们说他们将允许外国记者进入西藏报道西藏的火炬游行，这样就稍微束缚了他们的手脚。

Steve: But you know the Olympics have always been political. The Berlin Olympics in 1936 were an opportunity for Hitler to show off to the world. Los Juegos Olímpicos de Berlín de 1936 fueron una oportunidad para que Hitler se exhibiera ante el mundo. I know in Japan the Olympics in '64 were considered a symbol of Japan sort of joining the group of advanced nations. 我知道在日本，64年的奥运会被认为是日本加入先进国家行列的象征。 The Moscow Olympics were boycotted. 莫斯科奥运会遭到抵制。

Mark: Yeah, I mean this whole we have to keep the Olymp sport and politics separate. Mark: Sí, me refiero a que tenemos que mantener separados el deporte olímpico y la política. 马克：是的，我的意思是，我们必须将奥林匹克运动和政治分开。 I mean if it wasn’t politically motivated China probably would not have attempted to host the games period. Si no fuera por motivos políticos, probablemente China no habría intentado organizar los Juegos. 我的意思是，如果不是出于政治动机，中国可能不会尝试主办奥运会。 I mean it is a political statement because their whole system is so strongly politicized. Quiero decir que es una declaración política porque todo su sistema está fuertemente politizado. 我的意思是，这是一份政治声明，因为他们的整个体系政治化程度如此之高。

Steve: Are you suggesting that the Chinese Government and the Communist Party that their motivation in bringing the Olympics to Beijing was not simply that they were interested in sports and wanted the population in Beijing to have a chance to see firsthand some of these international athletes? Is that what you’re saying?

Mark: I know it’s a rather farfetched hypothesis, but yes I am. Mark: Sé que es una hipótesis bastante descabellada, pero sí. 马克：我知道这是一个相当牵强的假设，但我确实如此。

Steve: I mean let’s put it this way, Vancouver is going to host the Winter Olympics in 2010 and there the motivation is purely commercial.

Mark: Exactly.

Steve: That’s all it is, money.

Mark: Absolutely.

Steve: (A) because they think it’s going to be good for tourism and (B) because it’s a chance to grab some federal money so that they can get taxpayers and the rest of Canada to pay for some infrastructure here in Vancouver. Steve: (A) porque creen que va a ser bueno para el turismo y (B) porque es una oportunidad de conseguir dinero federal para que los contribuyentes y el resto de Canadá paguen algunas infraestructuras aquí en Vancouver.

Mark: Exactly, that’s all and hoping that there’ll be some kind of residual benefit from all these people being exposed to Vancouver during the Olympics and that it will payoff in the years following the Olympics. Mark: Exacto, eso es todo, y esperar que haya algún tipo de beneficio residual de toda esta gente que ha estado expuesta a Vancouver durante las Olimpiadas y que dé sus frutos en los años siguientes a las Olimpiadas. 马克：没错，就是这样，希望所有这些人在奥运会期间接触温哥华都会获得某种剩余利益，并在奥运会后的几年里得到回报。 Yeah, it’s entirely commercial; whereas, in China I don’t think it is.

Steve: It’s not commercial, no. It will end up costing the economy, but it’s more of a statement of here we are. 这最终会让经济付出代价，但这更多的是对我们现状的一种声明。 We’re one of the leading countries in the world, this is our chance to show off and, you know, China is, after all, the most populous country in the world. They’ve had this tremendous period of economic growth and they want to flap their wings and strut their stuff. Han tenido este tremendo periodo de crecimiento económico y quieren batir las alas y pavonearse. Ze hebben deze geweldige periode van economische groei achter de rug en ze willen met hun vleugels klappen en met hun spullen pronken. 他们经历了这段巨大的经济增长时期，他们想要振翅高飞，大展拳脚。

Mark: Yeah, they want to show that they’ve arrived. 马克：是的，他们想表明他们已经到达了。

Steve: Right.

Mark: So, obviously, this whole Tibet protest thing is causing a fair amount of consternation. 马克：很明显，整个西藏抗议事件引起了相当大的恐慌。

Steve: But, you know, it shouldn’t come as any surprise.

Mark: Absolutely not.

Steve: What an opportunity for the Tibetans to try to make their case to an international audience.

Mark: Absolutely. 马克：当然。

I mean if I’m a Tibetan I’m biding my time. Quiero decir que si soy tibetano estoy esperando mi momento. 我的意思是，如果我是藏人，我就会等待时机。 I’m surprised, they’ve kind of started a little early, but I guess they want to build up to it. Me sorprende, han empezado un poco pronto, pero supongo que quieren ir acumulando. 我很惊讶，他们开始得有点早，但我猜他们想继续努力。

Steve: Well no, no, I think their plan here is that the occasion of these Torch Parades in different world cities gives them tremendous PR. Steve: Bueno, no, no, creo que su plan aquí es que la ocasión de estos Desfiles de la Antorcha en diferentes ciudades del mundo les proporciona unas relaciones públicas tremendas. 史蒂夫：嗯，不，不，我认为他们的计划是，在世界不同城市举行火炬游行的场合给他们带来了巨大的公关。

Mark: Obviously, the crowds are not so easily controlled all over the world as they are in China. Mark: Obviamente, las multitudes no se controlan tan fácilmente en todo el mundo como en China. Although, there was obviously a big period of unrest in Tibet last week I guess. Aunque, obviamente, hubo un gran período de disturbios en el Tíbet la semana pasada, supongo. 尽管如此，我猜上周西藏显然经历了一段时期的动荡。

Steve: Well yeah, there have been various forms of unrest not only in Tibet proper, but in all of those areas where the Tibetans form the majority. Steve: Bueno, sí, ha habido varias formas de disturbios, no sólo en el Tíbet propiamente dicho, sino en todas las zonas donde los tibetanos son mayoría. 史蒂夫：是的，不仅在西藏本土，而且在藏人占多数的所有地区都发生了各种形式的骚乱。

Mark: Right.

Steve: Which is not just in what we consider to be Tibet, but it’s in Chinghai Province and in the western part of Sichuan Province. I mean it’s a very, very difficult issue and I mean there are all kinds of countries in the world where you have groups of people who are in some kind of an arrangement with a larger dominant group. Es una cuestión muy, muy difícil y hay todo tipo de países en el mundo donde hay grupos de personas que tienen algún tipo de acuerdo con un grupo dominante mayor. 我的意思是，这是一个非常非常困难的问题，我的意思是，世界上有很多国家，都有一群人与一个更大的主导群体处于某种安排中。 I mean in Canada we have Quebec where there are people in Quebec who would like Quebec to be independent and others who don’t, so these are very, very complex issues. We won’t get into all the ins and outs and historical claims one way or another, but I think it is fair to say that the Olympics is a very political and a very commercial event. 我们不会以某种方式探讨所有的来龙去脉和历史主张，但我认为可以公平地说，奥运会是一项政治性很强、商业性很强的活动。

Mark: Absolutely and that I don’t think we’ve seen the last of the Tibetans. Mark: Absolutamente y que no creo que hayamos visto lo último de los tibetanos.

Steve: No. Anyway, we chuckle. En fin, nos reímos. 不管怎样，我们都笑了。 Of course to the Chinese, especially people from mainland China, they feel this was their moment to be in the world spotlight in a positive way. Por supuesto, los chinos, especialmente los de la China continental, sienten que ha llegado su momento de ser el centro de atención mundial de forma positiva. The best scenario would have been that the games were very well-organized, everybody had a great time, there was great camaraderie, people from around the world, hopefully the Chinese athletes did well in their events so that everything, basically, reflected positively on China. 最好的情况是，比赛组织得很好，每个人都玩得很开心，有很好的友情，来自世界各地的人们，希望中国运动员在比赛中取得好成绩，这样一切基本上都会得到积极的反映中国。

Mark: Right.

Steve: Now we’ve got one black eye, regardless of who’s right and who’s wrong, whether the Dalai Lama is behind the disturbances or not, it really doesn’t matter. Steve: Ahora tenemos un ojo negro, independientemente de quién tenga razón y quién no, si el Dalai Lama está detrás de los disturbios o no, realmente no importa. 史蒂夫：现在我们已经眼花缭乱了，无论谁对谁错，达赖喇嘛是否是骚乱的幕后黑手，都已经不重要了。

Mark: No.

Steve: It all reflects badly on China and China’s response with some of their heavy-handed propaganda harkening back to the days of the Cultural Revolution where they are unable to refer the let’s say the Dalai Lama without calling him some bad name. Steve: Todo se refleja negativamente en China y en la respuesta de China con parte de su propaganda de mano dura que se remonta a los días de la Revolución Cultural, donde son incapaces de referirse, digamos, al Dalai Lama sin llamarle de alguna manera negativa. Steve: Het straalt allemaal slecht af op China en de reactie van China, waarbij sommige van hun hardhandige propaganda teruggrijpt op de dagen van de Culturele Revolutie, waar ze niet in staat waren om de laten we zeggen de Dalai Lama te verwijzen zonder hem een slechte naam te geven. 史蒂夫：这一切都严重影响了中国和中国的反应，他们的一些高压宣传让人回想起文化大革命时期，当时他们无法在提到达赖喇嘛时不骂他一些坏名声。

Mark: Right.

Steve: You know it all comes out in these standard Cultural Revolution-type slogans. 史蒂夫：你知道，这一切都体现在这些标准的文革口号中。

Mark: I can’t remember now what they’re calling him, but the Dalai Lama is a…

Steve: He’s a splitist, splitist. Steve: Hij is een splitist, een splitist.

Mark: There was another statement that I saw that described him as something else; I can’t remember.

Steve: I mean you’d think they should get some PR agent from… 史蒂夫：我的意思是你认为他们应该从……那里找一些公关代理。

Mark: To write their stuff?

Steve: To write their stuff because the stuff may work internally, but it makes it worse. Steve: Para escribir sus cosas porque las cosas pueden funcionar internamente, pero lo hace peor. Стив: Писать свои материалы, потому что эти материалы могут работать внутри, но при этом ухудшать ситуацию. 史蒂夫：写他们的东西，因为这些东西可能在内部起作用，但它会让事情变得更糟。

Mark: Yeah.

Steve: It does, it makes it worse. I mean if they simply said you know this is very unfortunate and, of course, there has been loss of life of Chinese people as well. Quiero decir que si simplemente dijeran que esto es muy desafortunado y, por supuesto, también ha habido pérdidas de vidas de chinos. 我的意思是，如果他们只是说你知道这非常不幸，当然，也有中国人丧生。

Mark: Right.

Steve: There are elements of this that if you wanted a tribal antagonism it’s antagonism between Tibetans and Chinese and some innocent Chinese people were killed. 史蒂夫：其中有一些因素，如果你想要部落对抗，那就是藏人和中国人之间的对抗，一些无辜的中国人被杀害。

Mark: Right.

Steve: So there’s a lot to be said on either side, but it’s just their heavy-handed propaganda that just makes it worse.

Mark: The Dalai Lama a running dog lackey is... Mark: El Dalai Lama es un perro lacayo... Mark: De Dalai Lama, een rennende hondenlak, is... Марк: Далай-лама - лакей бегущей собаки... 马克：达赖喇嘛的走狗是……

Steve: Whatever; whatever the term is. Anyway, so that’s a little bit controversial.

I don’t know how much time we have left here, but one of the things that really struck me was that there was a very tragic event on the east coast of Canada where some of the I guess you would call them the seal hunters who are involved in the annual seal hunt drowned as a part of a rescue effort, probably a very sloppy rescue effort, by the Canadian Coastguard. No sé cuánto tiempo nos queda, pero una de las cosas que más me ha llamado la atención es el trágico suceso ocurrido en la costa este de Canadá, donde algunos de los cazadores de focas que participan en la caza anual de focas murieron ahogados en una operación de rescate, probablemente muy chapucera, de los guardacostas canadienses. 我不知道我们在这里还剩多少时间，但真正让我震惊的一件事是，在加拿大东海岸发生了一件非常悲惨的事件，其中一些我猜你会称他们为海豹猎人参与一年一度的海豹捕猎活动，这是加拿大海岸警卫队救援行动的一部分，但可能是一次非常草率的救援行动。

Mark: Yeah.

Steve: A leading environmentalist said that the loss of these four human lives was less important than preventing the slaughter of the baby seals. Steve: Un destacado ecologista dijo que la pérdida de estas cuatro vidas humanas era menos importante que evitar la matanza de las crías de foca. 史蒂夫：一位著名的环保人士说，这四人的生命损失比防止海豹宝宝被屠杀更重要。 Here again, personally, I don’t know all the ins and outs of sealing. También en este caso, personalmente, no conozco todos los entresijos del sellado. 再次强调，就我个人而言，我并不了解密封的所有来龙去脉。 I know that there is a position that if the seal population isn’t kept in check that has devastating effects on the cod population, the fishing population, which we as humans need to feed ourselves. Sé que existe la postura de que si la población de focas no se mantiene bajo control tiene efectos devastadores sobre la población de bacalao, la población pesquera, que nosotros como humanos necesitamos para alimentarnos. My view of the environment is very much human-centered. 我对环境的看法非常以人为本。 In other words, whatever we do to the environment through our human activities, our only goal is what’s good for humans.

Mark: Ah, well…

Steve: In the long-term. A largo plazo.

Mark: In the long-term, yes. I guess the point is that I think that you’d hear from environmentalists...well, not all, I mean some would say that it’s not about what’s good for humans at all, it’s about what’s good for nature and yet that’s not exactly fair either because what’s nature? Nature is always evolving. One hundred years ago different species existed and different species did well and different species became extinct; nature doesn’t stand still. Hace cien años existían diferentes especies y a diferentes especies les iba bien y diferentes especies se extinguieron; la naturaleza no se queda quieta. There’s no state where you can say this is what we should aspire to in terms of which animals should do well, which animals should not do well. No hay ningún estado en el que se pueda decir que esto es a lo que debemos aspirar en cuanto a qué animales deben ir bien, qué animales no deben ir bien. 没有哪个国家可以说这是我们应该追求的目标，即哪些动物应该做得好，哪些动物不应该做得好。 Obviously, if one species does better another species is likely to do worse; a competitive species is likely to do worse. I mean that’s just the way it is, so anything that happens has a…it’s like physics, for every action there’s an equal and opposite reaction. Quiero decir que así son las cosas, así que todo lo que ocurre tiene una... es como la física, para cada acción hay una reacción igual y opuesta. 我的意思是事情就是这样，所以任何发生的事情都会……就像物理学一样，对于每一个动作都会有一个相等且相反的反应。 I mean I think the same is true in the natural world. But with regard to the sealing issue I think, first of all, those environmentalists lose sight of what is real to people. Pero con respecto a la cuestión del sellado creo, en primer lugar, que esos ecologistas pierden de vista lo que es real para la gente. Maar wat betreft de afdichtingskwestie, denk ik dat die milieuactivisten in de eerste plaats uit het oog verliezen wat echt is voor mensen. 但关于密封问题，我认为，首先，那些环保主义者忽视了人们的真实情况。 They get so caught up in we’ve got to save every seal that, you know, a few lives lost, well that’s nothing as long as we save the seals. Están tan atrapados en la idea de que tenemos que salvar a todas las focas que, ya sabes, si se pierden unas pocas vidas, eso no es nada mientras salvemos a las focas. 他们如此着迷，我们必须拯救每只海豹，你知道，一些人丧生，只要我们拯救海豹，那没什么。

Steve: Well I mean I agree with you, I mean we lose sight of priorities. Is the seal hunt such a big priority? 海豹捕猎有这么重要吗？ Even global warming, is that the major priority? At great cost we can perhaps, perhaps, mitigate the effects of global warming saving a few lives. 我们或许可以付出巨大的代价，减轻全球变暖的影响，拯救一些生命。 In the meantime, in China – we were talking about China earlier – pollution, like particulate matter in the atmosphere, kills half a million people a year. Mientras tanto, en China -hablábamos antes de China- la contaminación, como las partículas en la atmósfera, mata a medio millón de personas al año. 与此同时，在中国——我们之前讨论过中国——污染，比如大气中的颗粒物，每年导致五十万人死亡。 I mean that has to be a far bigger issue today.

Mark: Well absolutely. I mean because global warming, no matter what the different government bodies might say, is far from proven. Me refiero a que el calentamiento global, digan lo que digan los distintos organismos gubernamentales, está lejos de estar demostrado. 我的意思是，因为无论不同的政府机构怎么说，全球变暖还远未得到证实。

Steve: You mean, in other words, the influence of the human. 史蒂夫：换句话说，你的意思是人类的影响。

Mark: Human-caused global warming and there’s even debate about whether or not we are in fact warming. In fact the decade of the ‘90s was warmer than the current decade that we’re in. And what are we comparing it to? What’s the standard? Is it 200 years ago, 400 years ago, 50 years ago? At what point do we start from and then say okay that point was cooler than today so, therefore, we’re warming.

Steve: Right.

Mark: I mean it’s not at all obvious that (A) anything humans are doing is having an effect or (B) that the warming that we’re experiencing is out of the ordinary. 马克：我的意思是，（A）人类所做的任何事情正在产生影响，或者（B）我们正在经历的变暖是不寻常的，这一点并不明显。

Steve: But you know what is behind a lot of that is this sense that the way we live today in the 21st century is somehow evil; modern industrial society, globalized society, capitalism, whatever you want to call it is evil. 史蒂夫：但你知道，很多事情背后的原因是这样一种感觉，即我们今天在 21 世纪的生活方式在某种程度上是邪恶的；现代工业社会、全球化社会、资本主义，无论你怎么称呼它都是邪恶的。 And then in the case of Paul Watson who said that the death of four human sealers was less important than the fate of these seals, he goes on to say you know we should only have a billion people in the world not seven billion. En in het geval van Paul Watson, die zei dat de dood van vier menselijke zeehondenjagers minder belangrijk was dan het lot van deze zeehonden, vervolgt hij met te zeggen dat je weet dat we maar een miljard mensen in de wereld zouden moeten hebben, niet zeven miljard. Well my response to that is twofold, one, if he really feels that way he should begin by getting out of the way. Bueno mi respuesta a eso es doble, uno, si realmente se siente así debería empezar por quitarse de en medio. На это я отвечаю двояко: во-первых, если он действительно так считает, ему следует начать с того, чтобы уйти с дороги. 好吧，我对此的反应是双重的，一是如果他真的这么想，他应该首先让开。

Mark: Right.

Steve: Number one.

Mark: I was going to say, he’s free to lead the charge. Mark: Iba a decir que es libre de liderar la carga. Марк: Я хотел сказать, что он волен руководить. 马克：我想说，他可以自由地带头冲锋。

Steve: Lead by example.

Mark: Yeah.

Steve: The second thing is the fact that we have seven billion people in the world today, the fact that life expectancy even in Africa today is longer than it was 100 years ago, is that in terms of what’s good for human beings our environment is more human-friendly today than at any time in the history of mankind. 史蒂夫：第二件事是，当今世界有 70 亿人口，即使在非洲，今天的预期寿命也比 100 年前要长，就对人类有利而言，我们的环境是今天比人类历史上的任何时候都更加人性化。 And yes, there have been impacts on other forms of life and we don’t deliberately go out wanting to create an imbalance that destroys species, but we do eat other species. 是的，这对其他生命形式也产生了影响，我们并不是故意想要造成一种破坏物种的不平衡，但我们确实吃其他物种。 We eat other species of vegetable life, we eat other species of animal life and that is part of how the world operates. Our concern has to be what’s good for us now and what’s good for us for the foreseeable future. Yeah, we should reduce our dependence on a resource that may not be around 300 years from now, but I mean when you hear these people say that there’s too many humans in the world, well okay fine then, you go first.

Mark: Absolutely and really you talk about the sealers; I saw statistics, I guess last year at seal hunt time, which said the major seal protesters pull in -- in the two-week seal hunt -- they pull in 80 or 90% of their yearly budget. Mark: Absolutamente, y realmente hablas de los cazadores de focas; vi estadísticas, supongo que el año pasado en la época de la caza de focas, que decían que los principales manifestantes contra las focas sacan -en las dos semanas de caza de focas- entre el 80 y el 90% de su presupuesto anual. 马克：确实，你确实谈到了密封剂；我看到了统计数据，我猜是去年海豹狩猎时，统计数据显示，主要的海豹抗议者在为期两周的海豹狩猎活动中投入了年度预算的 80% 或 90%。 Their yearly donations come in in that time, so they have got to be out there banging the drum and causing a ruckus. Sus donaciones anuales llegan en ese tiempo, así que tienen que estar ahí tocando el tambor y armando jaleo. 他们每年的捐款都是在那个时候到来的，所以他们必须在那里敲锣打鼓，引起骚动。 The fact of the matter is, I don’t know about Paul Watson, I mean he’s a bit of a kook; presumably, he’s not doing it for free either. But I know that this organization that they talked about last time and I think it might have been the one that Paul McCartney was involved with there, but their chief operating officer or whatever he was I mean he was making $200,000 and the second in command was making $180,000 and all this money came from donations that people gave to protect the baby seals. So it’s not at all, at least not completely, a selfless act I’m here to save the seals; I mean that’s their livelihood. Así que no es en absoluto, al menos no del todo, un acto desinteresado Estoy aquí para salvar a las focas; quiero decir que es su medio de vida.

Steve: You know, maybe we should end on that note. Steve: Sabes, tal vez deberíamos terminar con esa nota.

Mark: Which means…

Steve: Yes, yes.

Mark: Which then causes me to not take environmental organizations very seriously, unless you’re out there for free at your own expense.

Steve: Yeah, but I mean it’s all part of the…I mean who knows? We could go back to the Tibetans, I’m sure their contributions are up as a result of all these activities too. 我们可以回到藏人身上，我相信他们的贡献也会因为所有这些活动而增加。

Mark: That’s true.

Steve: I’m sure the Dalai Lama lives at a certain level of comfort and flies first class or whatever. Anyway, we tried to be a bit controversial.

Mark: Yup.

Steve: Hopefully, we’ll get some response.

Mark: Absolutely.

Steve: Let’s hear some people who violently disagree with us. 史蒂夫：让我们听听一些强烈反对我们的人的声音。

Mark: That’s right. Okay, we’ll talk to you next time.

Steve: Okay.