×

We use cookies to help make LingQ better. By visiting the site, you agree to our cookie policy.


image

English LingQ Podcast 1.0, Forty-two: Arguments and Holidays

Forty-two: Arguments and Holidays

Steve: Jill.

Here we are again. We're going to try to debate something. Let's try to be controversial.

Jill: Hi Steve. How are you?

Steve: Not too bad. Boy it's blowing outside. What a miserable, miserable day.

Jill: Yeah, nice summer day for us in Vancouver.

Steve: There's no difference between June the 29th and I don't know, November.

Jill: November.

Steve: November the 15th. This is terrible.

Jill: I mean it's definitely warmer but it's not very nice.

Steve: It's very unpleasant. You know Jill, one of the things that bothers me is whenever we talk here we always agree but in life you often disagree with people.

Jill: Of course.

Steve: I think it's an important language skill to be able to disagree, present your views without offending the other person. Very often if you're in a foreign language where you don't have all the words at your disposal and you feel strongly about something it's very easy to say it in such a direct way that first of all, you're not going to convince anyone. Of course, we can never convince anyone anyway, but that's another story. You're not going to convince them and you may well offend them.

Jill: Right.

Steve: So, what we'll do today is I want you to pick a subject and I want you to tell me which side of the argument you're going to defend.

Jill: Okay.

Steve: And I will defend the other side and we'll try to have a polite, civilized debate.

Jill: Okay. Steve: What do you want to talk about? Jill: So, actually we've been talking about this a little bit recently because we have a lot of learners in Europe and it being the summertime a lot of them are taking vacation and most countries in western Europe anyway seem to give everybody five, six weeks holiday per year, and in Canada legal requirement for a full time employee is only two weeks and many employers give three weeks and then in different union situations people may get four, five or six, a lot more.

Steve: With seniority and stuff.

Jill: With seniority right but I think there are a lot of people who get two or three weeks,

Steve: Right.

Jill: in Canada. So I think maybe I will take the position that that is just not fair.

Steve: What's not fair?

Jill: Two or three weeks. I think five or six sounds better.

Steve: Well, could you, alright. I hear what you're saying. I should just interrupt here. What we're going to do is we're going to use a lot of expressions that are used in discussion in order to lubricate the discussion to make the discussion more pleasant and so I hope that people who listen to this content and then read it that they will save some of these expressions and hopefully be able to use them.

Jill: Right. Steve: So, I hear what you're saying but as an employer if I am only required to give my employees two or three weeks of holiday a year and if my employees accept that because everyone else in the society is happy to have two or three weeks, why would I possibly suggest that they have five or six weeks? Jill: Right, which is perfectly understandable. From an employer's perspective I agree totally and I may even be the same if I was an employer.

On the other hand, there can be arguments for the fact that people who have adequate time off are actually more productive during the time that they are at work. Um, so I guess really, it needs to maybe be weighed, how much it's costing you, what the cost benefit ratio is. You know, do you give an extra week and do you get more productivity out of that person because they have more rest or whatever, relaxation or do you not get any more productivity out of them and you're just paying them for another week of holidays?

Steve: Yeah, I think that's a good way of putting it. And, I know that in Europe typically the employee will take a full month off.

Jill: Right. Steve: And have another couple of weeks later on so they'll take their month in whatever, August. Jill: Right. Steve: And then they'll get another two weeks to go skiing and yeah, you could argue that the company doesn't suffer but, I mean, presumably the employee is doing something while at work. Jill: Right. Steve: So if say six weeks out of fifty-two the employee is not at work presumably that represents a cost, Jill: Exactly.

Steve: to the employer. Now, you're saying that after four weeks of holiday the employee comes back fully recharged but three weeks wouldn't do it.

Jill: No, not even necessarily, I think that when you only, if you get two weeks for example a year you're likely not to take two weeks at a time because you probably want a bit of time off at Christmas and you probably want a bit of time off in the summer so you will likely only take a maximum of a week at a time. And, I think for most people a week is not really enough.

Steve: Right, but we do have holidays around Christmas and around Easter.

Jill: Long weekends, yes.

Steve: Long weekends and so forth. By the way are we negotiating here?

Jill: No and to be honest I actually, I mean I'm defending a position but I kind of think that five or six weeks is a little bit ridiculous. I'm not really …

Steve: But you know Jill, in these discussions and we're going to do more of them, I don't, I mean I could be on the other side, okay? Should we switch? I'll defend the six weeks and you, because you're too reasonable. I want you to be stronger. I'll defend the six weeks. Alright?

I'll tell you why six weeks is good. First of all because every employee gives his best for the company but they also have a life to lead.

Jill: Right. Steve: So, you could argue from the employer's perspective that the employer should give no holidays at all. I mean from the employer's perspective if, for the same salary he can give no holidays and have the employee work 10 hours a day, maybe one day off a week, that would be better.

Now you're saying, and I agree with you that there is an issue there of recharging the batteries but that's very difficult to measure. So, I think one of the strongest arguments is that the employee who granted, gets paid but gives so much of his or her time to the company, if they can, if the company can achieve its objectives and the employee can enjoy a richer life,

Jill: And is happy.

Steve: And is happy because they can spend more time with their family, they can take three weeks off in the summer, they can go off to the beach or climb a mountain or whatever, and then they can go again and maybe, you know ski or they can go do something educational with their kids, they can go visit Europe then why wouldn't the employer do that?

Jill: Right. Steve: As long as it doesn't harm you know, essentially the economic performance of the company. Jill: Right. Steve: So, I, quite honestly, six weeks? Yeah, why not? The problem however is it would affect the economic performance of the company. I think six weeks, I agree with you. We have to find another subject where we disagree.

Jill: Where we disagree. I mean not that I wouldn't love to have six weeks. I'm not saying I wouldn't love that and my mom gets seven weeks holiday every year.

Steve: Because she's worked a long time?

Jill: She's worked a lot of years and just, she's not in a union but she's in a managerial role working for our health care system. And, so yes she started at four weeks 25 years ago and now she gets seven and a half weeks or something and it's great. She takes a month off in the summer and she takes a week or two at Christmas.

Steve: Now that raises some interesting points. First of all, in the public sector they have more generous, more generous conditions than in the private sector.

Jill: Right. Steve: And yet it's the taxpayer who's paying for that. Jill: Right. Steve: I sat beside a gentleman on my last flight back from Europe who was from Holland and he had left the private sector and moved into the public sector in Holland and his holidays went from five weeks to nine weeks. Jill: That's unbelievable.

Steve: Now why should the public sector, where they are not facing the problems of economic survival of their unit, why should they get these kinds of holiday conditions? And there is no limit. I mean, yeah, let's work six months and get off six months. Sure, the employee would like that. So, that's one issue.

The other issue is this whole seniority thing that we have here. Why, you know why should the lady with all due respect to your mother, who is probably in her 50s, why should she have seven weeks and someone just starting who has a family and wants to spend time with his or her kids or with his or her husband, wife, whatever, why do they get less? Why should the person's that's worked, you know, I don't think that's very …

Jill: I guess that's because they've earned it, it's sort of a, perk for having been there so long and given your loyalty for so long. I guess, I don't know if that's the reason or not but yeah, that seems to be how it is. You, you sort of acquire these vacations, you earn more vacation.

Steve: The problem is then we have in our society, we have started to look at certain things as being rights. So, with seniority you have certain rights. Is it fair? Is it fair that a 50 year old gets twice the amount of holiday as a 25 year old? Not necessarily.

Jill: No, it would be more fair to bring it down and balance everything out and maybe give everybody four weeks or whatever.

Steve: Maybe there are no rights there. Maybe there is no fair there. It's just, and, but still, I think two, I agree with you, we're supposed to disagree but I agree with you two weeks is too little.

Jill: Two weeks is too little, yeah.

Steve: At least four weeks, three to four weeks is not a bad number because we only live once and we need to have the time to enjoy our lives as well.

What we have to do Jill is we have to find something where…

Jill: A more controversial topic?

Steve: More controversial. How controversial can we get?

Jill: Well.

Steve: Let's see what we do for the next topic.


Forty-two: Arguments and Holidays

Steve: Jill.

Here we are again. Hier sind wir wieder. We're going to try to debate something. Wir werden versuchen, etwas zu diskutieren. Bir şeyi tartışmaya çalışacağız. Let's try to be controversial. Tartışmaya çalışalım.

Jill: Hi Steve. How are you?

Steve: Not too bad. Boy it's blowing outside. Junge, es weht draußen. Çocuk dışarıda uçuyor. What a miserable, miserable day. Ne kadar mutsuz, mutsuz bir gün.

Jill: Yeah, nice summer day for us in Vancouver. Jill: Ja, schöner Sommertag für uns in Vancouver.

Steve: There's no difference between June the 29th and I don't know, November. Steve: Es gibt keinen Unterschied zwischen dem 29. Juni und dem November. スティーブ:6月29日と11月の間に違いはありません。 Steve: 29 Haziran ile bilmiyorum, Kasım arasında fark yok.

Jill: November.

Steve: November the 15th. Steve: 15. November. This is terrible. Das ist fürchterlich.

Jill: I mean it's definitely warmer but it's not very nice. Jill: Ich meine, es ist definitiv wärmer, aber es ist nicht sehr schön.

Steve: It's very unpleasant. Steve: Es ist sehr unangenehm. You know Jill, one of the things that bothers me is whenever we talk here we always agree but in life you often disagree with people. Sie wissen, Jill, eines der Dinge, die mich stören, ist, wenn wir hier reden, sind wir uns immer einig, aber im Leben sind Sie oft anderer Meinung als Menschen. あなたはジルを知っています、私がここで話すときはいつでも私たちがいつも同意することですが、人生ではあなたはしばしば人々に同意しません。 Biliyorsun ki Jill, beni rahatsız eden şeylerden biri burada konuştuğumuzda hep aynı fikirdeyiz, ama hayatta genellikle insanlarla aynı fikirde değilsin.

Jill: Of course. Jill: Natürlich.

Steve: I think it's an important language skill to be able to disagree, present your views without offending the other person. Steve: Ich denke, es ist eine wichtige Sprachkompetenz, nicht zustimmen zu können, Ihre Ansichten zu präsentieren, ohne die andere Person zu beleidigen. スティーブ:他の人を怒らせることなく、意見を異にし、自分の意見を提示できることは、重要な言語スキルだと思います。 Steve: Bence bu, katılmama, görüşlerini diğer kişiye karşı saldırmaksızın sunabilmen önemli bir dil becerisidir. Very often if you're in a foreign language where you don't have all the words at your disposal and you feel strongly about something it's very easy to say it in such a direct way that first of all, you're not going to convince anyone. Sehr oft, wenn Sie in einer Fremdsprache sind, in der Sie nicht alle Wörter zur Verfügung haben und sich stark für etwas fühlen, ist es sehr einfach, es so direkt zu sagen, dass Sie es zunächst einmal nicht tun werden jemanden überzeugen. あなたが自由に使えるすべての単語を持っていない外国語にいて、何かについて強く感じているなら、まず第一に、あなたはそうするつもりはないような直接的な方法でそれを言うのは非常に簡単です誰にでも納得させる。 Çok sık yabancı bir dilde iseniz, elinizde bulunan tüm kelimelere sahip değilseniz ve bir şey hakkında güçlü bir şekilde hissediyorsanız, bunu doğrudan bir şekilde söylemenin çok kolay bir yoludur, her şeyden önce kimseyi ikna et. Дуже часто, якщо ви володієте іноземною мовою, де у вас немає всіх слів у вашому розпорядженні, і ви сильно переживаєте за щось, дуже легко сказати це так прямо, що, по-перше, ви не збираєтеся будь-кого переконати. Of course, we can never convince anyone anyway, but that's another story. Natürlich können wir sowieso niemanden überzeugen, aber das ist eine andere Geschichte. もちろん、とにかく誰にも納得させることはできませんが、それは別の話です。 Elbette, kimseyi bir şekilde ikna edemeyiz, ama bu başka bir hikaye. You're not going to convince them and you may well offend them. Sie werden sie nicht überzeugen und Sie können sie gut beleidigen. Onları ikna etmeyeceksin ve onları hakaret edebilirsin. Ви їх не переконаєте, і цілком можете їх образити.

Jill: Right.

Steve: So, what we'll do today is I want you to pick a subject and I want you to tell me which side of the argument you're going to defend. Steve: Also, was wir heute tun werden, ist, dass Sie ein Thema auswählen und mir sagen, welche Seite des Arguments Sie verteidigen werden. Steve: Öyleyse, bugün yapacağımız şey, bir konu seçmeni istiyorum ve savunacağın tartışmanın hangi tarafını söylemeni istiyorum.

Jill: Okay.

Steve: And I will defend the other side and we'll try to have a polite, civilized debate. Steve: Ben diğer tarafı savunacağım ve kibar, medeni bir tartışmaya girmeye çalışacağız.

Jill: Okay. Steve: What do you want to talk about? Jill: So, actually we've been talking about this a little bit recently because we have a lot of learners in Europe and it being the summertime a lot of them are taking vacation and most countries in western Europe anyway seem to give everybody five, six weeks holiday per year, and in Canada legal requirement for a full time employee is only two weeks and many employers give three weeks and then in different union situations people may get four, five or six, a lot more. Jill: Also, eigentlich haben wir in letzter Zeit ein bisschen darüber gesprochen, weil wir viele Lernende in Europa haben und es Sommer ist, in dem viele von ihnen Urlaub machen und die meisten Länder in Westeuropa sowieso jedem fünf geben, Sechs Wochen Urlaub pro Jahr, und in Kanada beträgt die gesetzliche Anforderung für einen Vollzeitbeschäftigten nur zwei Wochen, und viele Arbeitgeber geben drei Wochen, und in verschiedenen Gewerkschaftssituationen erhalten die Menschen möglicherweise vier, fünf oder sechs, viel mehr. Steve: Ne hakkında konuşmak istiyorsun?

Steve: With seniority and stuff. Steve: Mit Dienstalter und so. Jill: Aslında, son zamanlarda bu konudan biraz bahsediyoruz çünkü Avrupa'da çok sayıda öğrencimiz var ve bu yazların çoğu tatile çıkıyor ve Batı Avrupa'daki çoğu ülke, herkese beş kişi veriyor gibi görünüyor. yılda altı haftalık tatil ve Kanada'da tam zamanlı çalışan için yasal gereklilik sadece iki hafta ve birçok işveren üç hafta veriyor ve daha sonra farklı sendika durumlarında insanlar dört, beş veya altı, daha çok alabilirler. Стів: Зі стажем та іншим.

Jill: With seniority right but I think there are a lot of people who get two or three weeks, Jill: Mit dem richtigen Dienstalter, aber ich denke, es gibt viele Leute, die zwei oder drei Wochen Zeit haben. Steve: Kıdem ve başka şeylerle.

Steve: Right. Jill: Kıdemsiz haklı ama bence iki ya da üç hafta alacak bir sürü insan var.

Jill: in Canada. So I think maybe I will take the position that that is just not fair.

Steve: What's not fair? Bu yüzden belki de bunun adil olmadığını düşündüğümü düşünüyorum.

Jill: Two or three weeks. Steve: Adil olmayan nedir? I think five or six sounds better.

Steve: Well, could you, alright. I hear what you're saying. I should just interrupt here. Ne dediğini duyuyorum. What we're going to do is we're going to use a lot of expressions that are used in discussion in order to lubricate the discussion to make the discussion more pleasant and so I hope that people who listen to this content and then read it that they will save some of these expressions and hopefully be able to use them. Was wir tun werden, ist, dass wir viele Ausdrücke verwenden, die in der Diskussion verwendet werden, um die Diskussion zu schmieren, um die Diskussion angenehmer zu gestalten, und deshalb hoffe ich, dass Leute, die diesen Inhalt anhören und ihn dann lesen dass sie einige dieser Ausdrücke speichern und sie hoffentlich verwenden können. Sadece burada durmalıyım.

Jill: Right. Steve: So, I hear what you're saying but as an employer if I am only required to give my employees two or three weeks of holiday a year and if my employees accept that because everyone else in the society is happy to have two or three weeks, why would I possibly suggest that they have five or six weeks? Jill: Richtig. Steve: Also, ich höre, was Sie sagen, aber als Arbeitgeber, wenn ich meinen Mitarbeitern nur zwei oder drei Wochen Urlaub pro Jahr geben muss und wenn meine Mitarbeiter das akzeptieren, weil alle anderen in der Gesellschaft glücklich sind, zwei oder drei zu haben drei Wochen, warum sollte ich möglicherweise vorschlagen, dass sie fünf oder sechs Wochen haben? ジル:そうだね。スティーブ:それで、あなたが言っていることを聞きますが、私が従業員に年に2、3週間の休日を与えることだけが要求され、社会の他の誰もが2、3週間持っていることを喜んでいるので、従業員がそれを受け入れる場合、雇用主として3週間、なぜ5週間か6週間あると提案するのでしょうか。 Yapacağımız şey, tartışmayı daha keyifli hale getirmek için tartışmayı yağlamak amacıyla tartışılan birçok ifadeyi kullanacağız ve bu yüzden bu içeriği dinleyen ve daha sonra okuyan insanların Bu ifadelerden bazılarını kurtaracaklarını ve bunları kullanabileceklerini umuyorum. Jill: Right, which is perfectly understandable. Jill: Richtig, das ist vollkommen verständlich. From an employer's perspective I agree totally and I may even be the same if I was an employer. Aus Sicht eines Arbeitgebers stimme ich voll und ganz zu und ich könnte sogar derselbe sein, wenn ich ein Arbeitgeber wäre. Du point de vue d'un employeur, je suis tout à fait d'accord et je serais peut-être le même si j'étais un employeur. Steve: Öyleyse söylediklerimi duyuyorum ama işveren olarak sadece çalışanlarıma yılda iki ya da üç hafta tatile izin vermem gerekiyorsa ve eğer çalışanlarım kabul ettiysem, toplumdaki herkes ikiye sahip olmaktan mutluluk duyuyorsa ya da Üç hafta, neden beş ya da altı hafta geçirdiklerini söyleyebilirim? З точки зору роботодавця, я повністю згоден, і я навіть міг би бути таким же, якби я був роботодавцем.

On the other hand, there can be arguments for the fact that people who have adequate time off are actually more productive during the time that they are at work. D'un autre côté, il peut y avoir des arguments pour le fait que les personnes qui ont suffisamment de temps libre sont en fait plus productives pendant le temps qu'elles sont au travail. Jill: Doğru, bu tamamen anlaşılabilir. Um, so I guess really, it needs to maybe be weighed, how much it's costing you, what the cost benefit ratio is. Euh, donc je suppose vraiment, il faut peut-être peser, combien cela vous coûte, quel est le rapport coût-bénéfice. Bir işverenin bakış açısından tamamen katılıyorum ve işveren olsam bile aynı olabilirim. You know, do you give an extra week and do you get more productivity out of that person because they have more rest or whatever, relaxation or do you not get any more productivity out of them and you're just paying them for another week of holidays? Vous savez, donnez-vous une semaine supplémentaire et obtenez-vous plus de productivité de cette personne parce qu'elle a plus de repos ou autre, de détente ou n'obtenez-vous pas plus de productivité d'elle et vous la payez juste pour une autre semaine de vacances? あなたが知っている、あなたは余分な週を与えますか、そしてあなたは彼らがより多くの休息か何かを持っているのでその人からより多くの生産性を手に入れますか、リラックスしますか、それともあなたは彼らからそれ以上の生産性を手に入れませんか?休日? Öte yandan, yeterli zamana sahip olan insanların, iş yaptıkları süre boyunca aslında daha üretken oldukları gerçeğini savunan argümanlar olabilir.

Steve: Yeah, I think that's a good way of putting it. Steve : Ouais, je pense que c'est une bonne façon de le dire. Um, sanırım gerçekten de, tartılmaya ihtiyaç duyuyor, ne kadar para harcayacağınız, maliyet fayda oranının ne olduğu. Стів: Так, я думаю, що це хороший спосіб висловитися. And, I know that in Europe typically the employee will take a full month off. Biliyorsunuz, ekstra bir hafta veriyorsunuz ve bu kişiden daha fazla üretken oluyorsunuz çünkü daha fazla dinlenmeye ya da her ne ise, rahatlamaya sahipler ya da bunlardan daha fazla üretkenlik almıyorsunuz ve sadece bir hafta daha onları ödüyorsunuz. Bayram? І я знаю, що в Європі зазвичай працівник бере повний місяць відпустки.

Jill: Right. Steve: And have another couple of weeks later on so they'll take their month in whatever, August. Jill : C'est vrai. Steve : Et avoir encore quelques semaines plus tard pour qu'ils prennent leur mois en août. ジル:そうだね。スティーブ:そして、あと数週間後には、8月の何月にもかかるようになります。 Steve: Evet, bence bu onu koymak için iyi bir yol. Джилл: Правильно. Стів: І мати ще пару тижнів пізніше, щоб вони взяли свій місяць у будь-якому, серпні. Jill: Right. Steve: And then they'll get another two weeks to go skiing and yeah, you could argue that the company doesn't suffer but, I mean, presumably the employee is doing something while at work. Jill : C'est vrai. Steve : Et puis ils auront encore deux semaines pour aller skier et oui, on pourrait dire que l'entreprise ne souffre pas mais, je veux dire, on peut supposer que l'employé fait quelque chose pendant qu'il est au travail. Ve bildiğim kadarıyla Avrupa'da genellikle çalışan tam bir ay sürecek. Джилл: Правильно. Стів: А потім вони отримають ще два тижні, щоб покататися на лижах, і так, ви можете стверджувати, що компанія не страждає, але, я маю на увазі, імовірно, працівник щось робить під час роботи. Jill: Right. Steve: So if say six weeks out of fifty-two the employee is not at work presumably that represents a cost, Jill : C'est vrai. Steve : Donc, si, disons, six semaines sur cinquante-deux, l'employé n'est pas au travail, cela représente probablement un coût, Jill: Exactly. Steve: Ve başka bir kaç hafta sonra, her ay Ağustos ayında aylarını alacaklar.

Steve: to the employer. Стів: роботодавцю. Now, you're saying that after four weeks of holiday the employee comes back fully recharged but three weeks wouldn't do it. Maintenant, vous dites qu'après quatre semaines de vacances, l'employé revient complètement rechargé, mais trois semaines ne suffiraient pas. Steve: Ve sonra kayak yapmak için iki hafta daha alacaklar ve evet, şirketin acı çekmediğini, yani muhtemelen işçinin işteyken bir şeyler yaptığını söyleyebilirsin.

Jill: No, not even necessarily, I think that when you only, if you get two weeks for example a year you're likely not to take two weeks at a time because you probably want a bit of time off at Christmas and you probably want a bit of time off in the summer so you will likely only take a maximum of a week at a time. Jill : Non, même pas nécessairement, je pense que lorsque vous êtes seul, si vous avez par exemple deux semaines par an, vous ne prendrez probablement pas deux semaines à la fois parce que vous voulez probablement un peu de temps libre à Noël et vous avez probablement voulez un peu de temps libre en été, vous ne prendrez donc probablement qu'un maximum d'une semaine à la fois. And, I think for most people a week is not really enough. Steve: Öyleyse, 52 kişiden altı hafta geçiyorsa, çalışanın işe yaramıyor olması muhtemel bir bedeli temsil ediyor.

Steve: Right, but we do have holidays around Christmas and around Easter. Steve : C'est vrai, mais nous avons des vacances autour de Noël et de Pâques.

Jill: Long weekends, yes. Steve: işverene.

Steve: Long weekends and so forth. Şimdi, dört haftalık tatilden sonra çalışanın tam olarak yeniden şarj edildiğini söylüyorsun ama üç hafta bunu yapmazdı. Стів: Довгі вихідні і так далі. By the way are we negotiating here? Au fait, sommes-nous en train de négocier ici ? Jill: Hayır, elbette bile değil, sadece siz, iki haftada bir yıl geçirirseniz, muhtemelen bir seferde iki hafta almamanız muhtemeldir çünkü muhtemelen Noel'de biraz zaman geçirmek istersiniz ve muhtemelen Yaz aylarında biraz zaman geçirmek istiyorsanız, muhtemelen bir seferde en fazla bir hafta geçirmeniz muhtemeldir.

Jill: No and to be honest I actually, I mean I'm defending a position but I kind of think that five or six weeks is a little bit ridiculous. Jill : Non et pour être honnête, en fait, je veux dire que je défends une position mais je pense en quelque sorte que cinq ou six semaines, c'est un peu ridicule. Джилл: Ні, і, чесно кажучи, я насправді, я маю на увазі, що я захищаю позицію, але я вважаю, що п'ять або шість тижнів - це трохи смішно. I'm not really …

Steve: But you know Jill, in these discussions and we're going to do more of them, I don't, I mean I could be on the other side, okay? Steve : Mais tu sais Jill, dans ces discussions et nous allons en faire plus, je ne, je veux dire que je pourrais être de l'autre côté, d'accord ? Should we switch? Doit-on basculer ? I'll defend the six weeks and you, because you're too reasonable. Je défendrai les six semaines et toi, parce que tu es trop raisonnable. Bu arada burada görüşüyoruz? Я захищатиму шість тижнів і вас, бо ви занадто розумні. I want you to be stronger. Je veux que tu sois plus fort. Jill: Hayır ve dürüst olmak gerekirse, aslında bir pozisyonu savunuyorum ama sanırım beş ya da altı hafta biraz saçma. I'll defend the six weeks. Alright?

I'll tell you why six weeks is good. Geçmeli miyiz? First of all because every employee gives his best for the company but they also have a life to lead. D'abord parce que chaque collaborateur donne le meilleur de lui-même pour l'entreprise mais il a aussi une vie à mener. Altı haftayı savunacağım, çünkü sen çok mantıklısın.

Jill: Right. Steve: So, you could argue from the employer's perspective that the employer should give no holidays at all. Daha güçlü olmanı istiyorum. I mean from the employer's perspective if, for the same salary he can give no holidays and have the employee work 10 hours a day, maybe one day off a week, that would be better. Je veux dire du point de vue de l'employeur si, pour le même salaire, il peut ne pas accorder de vacances et faire travailler l'employé 10 heures par jour, peut-être un jour de congé par semaine, ce serait mieux. Я маю на увазі, з точки зору роботодавця, якщо за ту саму зарплату він може не давати відпусток і щоб працівник працював 10 годин на день, можливо, один вихідний на тиждень, це було б краще.

Now you're saying, and I agree with you that there is an issue there of recharging the batteries but that's very difficult to measure. So, I think one of the strongest arguments is that the employee who granted, gets paid but gives so much of his or her time to the company, if they can, if the company can achieve its objectives and the employee can enjoy a richer life, Ich denke, eines der stärksten Argumente ist, dass der Mitarbeiter, der gewährt hat, bezahlt wird, aber so viel Zeit für das Unternehmen aufbringt, wenn er kann, wenn das Unternehmen seine Ziele erreichen kann und der Mitarbeiter ein reicheres Leben führen kann , Donc, je pense que l'un des arguments les plus forts est que l'employé qui a accordé est payé mais donne autant de son temps à l'entreprise, s'il le peut, si l'entreprise peut atteindre ses objectifs et que l'employé peut profiter d'une vie plus riche. ,

Jill: And is happy.

Steve: And is happy because they can spend more time with their family, they can take three weeks off in the summer, they can go off to the beach or climb a mountain or whatever, and then they can go again and maybe, you know ski or they can go do something educational with their kids, they can go visit Europe then why wouldn't the employer do that? Steve : Et est heureux parce qu'ils peuvent passer plus de temps avec leur famille, ils peuvent prendre trois semaines de congé en été, ils peuvent aller à la plage ou escalader une montagne ou quoi que ce soit, puis ils peuvent repartir et peut-être, vous savez skier ou aller faire quelque chose d'éducatif avec leurs enfants, ils peuvent aller visiter l'Europe, alors pourquoi l'employeur ne le ferait-il pas ?

Jill: Right. Steve: As long as it doesn't harm you know, essentially the economic performance of the company. Джилл: Правильно. Стів: Поки це не шкодить, ви знаєте, по суті економічній діяльності компанії. Jill: Right. Steve: So, I, quite honestly, six weeks? Yeah, why not? The problem however is it would affect the economic performance of the company. Bu yüzden, en güçlü argümanlardan biri bence, verilen parayı ödediği, ancak şirkete çok fazla zaman ayırdığı, eğer şirket hedeflerine ulaşabiliyorsa ve çalışan daha zengin bir hayatın tadını çıkarabiliyorsa; , I think six weeks, I agree with you. We have to find another subject where we disagree. Steve: Ve mutlular çünkü aileleriyle daha fazla zaman geçirebilirler, yaz aylarında üç hafta izin alabilirler, plaja gidebilirler ya da bir dağa veya başka bir yere tırmanabilirler ve sonra tekrar gidebilirler ve belki kayak ya da çocuklarıyla eğitici bir şeyler yapabilirler, Avrupa'yı ziyaret edebilirler, o zaman neden işveren bunu yapmaz?

Jill: Where we disagree. I mean not that I wouldn't love to have six weeks. Je ne veux pas dire que je n'aimerais pas avoir six semaines. Steve: Zarar vermediği sürece, aslında şirketin ekonomik performansı. I'm not saying I wouldn't love that and my mom gets seven weeks holiday every year. Je ne dis pas que je n'aimerais pas ça et ma mère a sept semaines de vacances chaque année. 私はそれが好きではないと言っているわけではなく、私の母は毎年7週間の休暇を取ります。

Steve: Because she's worked a long time? Steve: Yani, dürüstçe, altı hafta mı?

Jill: She's worked a lot of years and just, she's not in a union but she's in a managerial role working for our health care system. Jill : Elle a travaillé de nombreuses années et elle n'est pas syndiquée, mais elle occupe un poste de direction dans notre système de soins de santé. Джилл: Вона пропрацювала багато років і просто, вона не в профспілці, але вона на керівній посаді, яка працює в нашій системі охорони здоров'я. And, so yes she started at four weeks 25 years ago and now she gets seven and a half weeks or something and it's great. Et, donc oui, elle a commencé à quatre semaines il y a 25 ans et maintenant elle a sept semaines et demie ou quelque chose comme ça et c'est super. She takes a month off in the summer and she takes a week or two at Christmas.

Steve: Now that raises some interesting points. First of all, in the public sector they have more generous, more generous conditions than in the private sector. Перш за все, у державному секторі вони мають щедріші, щедріші умови, ніж у приватному секторі.

Jill: Right. Steve: And yet it's the taxpayer who's paying for that. Demek istediğim altı haftaya sahip olmayı sevmezdim. Jill: Right. Steve: I sat beside a gentleman on my last flight back from Europe who was from Holland and he had left the private sector and moved into the public sector in Holland and his holidays went from five weeks to nine weeks. Jill : C'est vrai. Steve : Lors de mon dernier vol de retour d'Europe, j'étais assis à côté d'un homme qui venait des Pays-Bas. Il avait quitté le secteur privé pour rejoindre le secteur public aux Pays-Bas. Ses vacances sont passées de cinq à neuf semaines. Bunu sevmeyeceğimi söylemiyorum ve annem her yıl yedi hafta tatil yapıyor. Jill: That's unbelievable. Steve: Uzun zamandır çalıştığı için mi?

Steve: Now why should the public sector, where they are not facing the problems of economic survival of their unit, why should they get these kinds of holiday conditions? Steve : Maintenant pourquoi le secteur public, alors qu'il n'est pas confronté aux problèmes de survie économique de son unité, devrait-il bénéficier de ce genre de conditions de vacances ? Jill: Çok uzun bir süre çalıştı ve sadece sendikada değil, sağlık bakım sistemimiz için çalışan bir yönetici rolü var. And there is no limit. Ve evet, 25 yıl önce dört haftada başladı ve şimdi yedi buçuk hafta ya da bir şey alıyor ve harika. I mean, yeah, let's work six months and get off six months. Sure, the employee would like that. Steve: Şimdi bu bazı ilginç noktaları gündeme getiriyor. So, that's one issue. Donc, c'est un problème. Her şeyden önce, kamu sektöründe özel sektördekinden daha cömert, daha cömert koşullar var.

The other issue is this whole seniority thing that we have here. L'autre problème, c'est toute cette histoire d'ancienneté que nous avons ici. Het andere probleem is dat hele anciënniteitsding dat we hier hebben. Інше питання — це вся ця річ про стаж, яку ми тут маємо. Why, you know why should the lady with all due respect to your mother, who is probably in her 50s, why should she have seven weeks and someone just starting who has a family and wants to spend time with his or her kids or with his or her husband, wife, whatever, why do they get less? なぜ、あなたはおそらく50代の母親に敬意を表して女性がなぜ7週間を過ごし、家族がいて子供や彼と一緒に時間を過ごしたいと思っている人がいるのかを知っていますまたは彼女の夫、妻、何でも、なぜ彼らは少なくなるのですか? Steve: Ama bunun için ödeme yapan vergi mükellefidir. Why should the person's that's worked, you know, I don't think that's very … Pourquoi la personne qui a travaillé, vous savez, je ne pense pas que ce soit très …

Jill: I guess that's because they've earned it, it's sort of a, perk for having been there so long and given your loyalty for so long. Jill : Je suppose que c'est parce qu'ils l'ont mérité, c'est en quelque sorte un avantage pour avoir été là si longtemps et compte tenu de votre loyauté depuis si longtemps. ジル:それは彼らがそれを獲得したからだと思います、それは一種の、長い間そこにいて、長い間あなたの忠誠を与えてくれた特典です。 Steve: Hollanda'dan gelen, Avrupa'dan gelen son uçuşumda bir beyefendinin yanında oturdum ve özel sektörden ayrılarak Hollanda'da kamu sektörüne taşındı ve tatilleri beş haftadan dokuz haftaya çıktı. Джилл: Я припускаю, що це тому, що вони заслужили це, це свого роду бонус за те, що ви так довго були там і так довго зберігали вашу лояльність. I guess, I don't know if that's the reason or not but yeah, that seems to be how it is. You, you sort of acquire these vacations, you earn more vacation. Vous, vous achetez en quelque sorte ces vacances, vous gagnez plus de vacances. あなたは、これらの休暇を取得し、より多くの休暇を獲得します。 Steve: Şimdi, neden kendi birimlerinin ekonomik hayatta kalma sorunlarıyla karşılaşmadığı kamu sektörü, neden bu tür tatil koşullarını almalı? Ви начебто отримуєте ці канікули, ви заробляєте більше відпусток.

Steve: The problem is then we have in our society, we have started to look at certain things as being rights. Steve : Le problème est que nous avons dans notre société, nous avons commencé à considérer certaines choses comme étant des droits. Стів: Проблема в тому, що в нашому суспільстві ми почали розглядати певні речі як права. So, with seniority you have certain rights. Yani, altı ay çalışalım ve altı ay sonra çıkalım. Is it fair? Elbette, çalışan bunu ister. Is it fair that a 50 year old gets twice the amount of holiday as a 25 year old? Yani, bu bir sorun. Not necessarily. Diğer konu, burada sahip olduğumuz bu kıdemlilik meselesi.

Jill: No, it would be more fair to bring it down and balance everything out and maybe give everybody four weeks or whatever. Jill : Non, il serait plus juste de le réduire et de tout équilibrer et peut-être de donner à chacun quatre semaines ou quoi que ce soit. Neden, neden hanımefendinin anneye karşı saygısızlık yapması gerektiğini biliyorsunuzdur, muhtemelen 50'li yaşlarında olan, neden yedi hafta ve bir aile sahibi olan ve çocuklarıyla ya da çocuklarıyla zaman geçirmek isteyen bir çocuk sahibi olmak zorundadır. ya da kocası, karısı, neyse, neden daha az kazanıyorlar?

Steve: Maybe there are no rights there. Neden işe yarayan kişi olmalı, bilirsin, bu çok da düşünmüyorum… Maybe there is no fair there. Jill: Sanırım bu, onu hak ettikleri için, çok uzun süredir sahip olduğun ve uzun süredir sadakatini verdiler. It's just, and, but still, I think two, I agree with you, we're supposed to disagree but I agree with you two weeks is too little. C'est juste, et, mais quand même, je pense que deux, je suis d'accord avec toi, nous sommes censés être en désaccord mais je suis d'accord avec toi, deux semaines c'est trop peu. Sanırım, bunun sebebi olup olmadığını bilmiyorum ama evet, öyle görünüyor.

Jill: Two weeks is too little, yeah.

Steve: At least four weeks, three to four weeks is not a bad number because we only live once and we need to have the time to enjoy our lives as well. Steve : Au moins quatre semaines, trois à quatre semaines, ce n'est pas un mauvais chiffre, car nous ne vivons qu'une fois et nous devons également avoir le temps de profiter de notre vie. Steve: Sorun o zaman toplumumuzda var, bazı şeylere hak olarak bakmaya başladık.

What we have to do Jill is we have to find something where… Ce que nous devons faire, Jill, c'est que nous devons trouver quelque chose où... Yani, kıdemle bazı haklarınız var.

Jill: A more controversial topic? Adil mi

Steve: More controversial. 50 yaşında bir kızın 25 yaşına kadar iki kat fazla tatil alması adil midir? How controversial can we get?

Jill: Well. Jill: Hayır, onu geri getirmek ve her şeyi dengelemek daha adil olur ve belki de herkese dört hafta ya da her neyse.

Steve: Let's see what we do for the next topic. Steve: Belki orada hiç hak yok.