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English LingQ Podcast 1.0, Forty-six: Relative Pronouns

Forty-six: Relative Pronouns

Steve: Hi Jill.

Jill: Hi Steve. How are you?

Steve: I'm fine. You know, I thought today that we would talk a little bit about the language and how it's used. I want to talk in particular about something that is called in grammar terms the ‘relative pronoun' which sounds very complicated and sophisticated but basically what we're talking about is in every language if you talk about a particular house or a particular person you're going to say something like the house which is on the hill. Right? Or, Jill is the girl in the red dress. Do you have a red dress on?

Jill: I sure do.

Steve: Alright so what about Steve? Which guy is Steve?

Jill: Steve is the guy with the glasses.

Steve: Right. Now, in some languages they do it differently. They would say, the with the glasses guy, the wearing the red dress girl. We don't do it that way in English, do we?

Jill: Not at all, no. And most people have problems with pronouns, relative pronouns.

Steve: And, I wonder what, you know I, we often say the best thing is to notice the language and notice the structures but one thing we can say is that first of all, which are these pronouns? Name some of them.

Jill: ‘Which', ‘that', ‘with', no. Steve: No. ‘Who'. Jill: ‘Who'. Steve: Alright. so there for example, right away, off the bat, as we say, right off the bat, the meal that I ate last night, the meal which I ate last night, is there any difference in your mind?

Jill: Well I was taught in high school by a, one of my English teachers who was a stickler for grammar rules that inanimate things like houses, you use ‘that' and you use ‘which' and ‘who' with people. So we were taught that you wouldn't say the house ‘which' is over there, you would say the house ‘that' is over there. I mean, people do say with which all the time. I don't know if you know, it's a big deal but that is what I was actually taught.

Steve: But you know, I think the point which you make, the point you have just made, the point which you made, they're both acceptable. But, what I find is that I'm curious now. I want to know. I want to know which is correct and so I would go into LingQ or the Linguist and I would save ‘which' just to see what kind of examples turn up. One of the things that we try to train people is to try to discover the language whether it be English or Japanese or Spanish, try to discover the language for yourself. You will remember it better in my opinion.

One of the things that people have to be careful of whether we're talking about ‘which' or ‘that' is some people get very sloppy with ‘which', even native speakers. They'll say things like you know, I don't like going to the interior because it gets so hot, which it was really hot last weekend. You know, I mean I'm exaggerating but often they'll use the word which to connect.

Jill: As a run on sentence. Instead of just starting a new sentence they throw it in there.

Steve: Not only is it a run on sentence but because the word ‘which' is supposed to stand for something else, it's a pronoun it has to be clear just what specific item, noun, person, thing does this ‘which' represent. You can't just have it, you know, I don't like swimming in the ocean. You could say which is why I don't you know, have a boat so that there the ‘which' is clear because ‘that is why' can sometimes be covered by the word ‘which'. So, here again, we don't like to have a lot of grammar rules. We would, we prefer that people explore the language themselves. Part of the problem is that there are so many exceptions when you try to describe it with rules. I don't know. What else could we say to help people?

Jill: Well, one thing I've noticed actually is a lot of people, I've noticed this a lot among German speakers and probably other groups but for sure among German speakers, they will often say ‘what' instead of ‘that'. The house ‘what' I went to, you know the place ‘what' I went to yesterday which is totally incorrect. It's the place ‘that' I went to. Steve: You know it's interesting because in German they would use das which is that. The people who should have a problem would be like the Russians because there the word 'kotoryy', which means ‘what', is used as ‘which'. So, I mean these are all similar words and it's really just that in one language we use one and in another we use another word.

But you're quite right. I sometimes, the house ‘what' I bought is not correct. Jill: And actually another thing I was going to mention is I was thinking about it after we spoke and I think I was confused and I think it was my English teacher who was saying that ‘who' and ‘that' are used interchangeably and he was saying ‘who' is specific to a person. You can't use ‘who' and say the house who was on the hill. You have to say the house ‘that' is on the hill. And, we often do say something like the person ‘that' I admire most but in reality it's supposed to be the person ‘who' I admire most. That's what I was taught so not ‘which' but ‘who'. Steve: Well that's the problem with rules. You're better off to look at practice and I think if you said that person that I admire the most, I don't think that's wrong. I, I think you'll hear that all the time.

Jill: Yeah, I'm not saying you won't hear it but I'm saying in some text book somewhere it says ‘who' should be used with a person and ‘that' should be used with a thing. So, but we say it all the time. They have speakers say it all the time so I wouldn't, and that's the danger of reading a text book about grammar rules, is you know, it may tell you something and then you hear native speakers saying it the other way and you can't understand why they're saying something that this book told you was wrong.

Steve: Right. I think that's where again, we get back to this idea of we encourage people to do a lot of listening, to listen to people who's voices they like, listen to people who speak the way they would like to speak and just gradually start to imitate them. I was just thinking it's kind of funny, but when sometimes if we imitate an accent like you were saying German people might say the house ‘what' is on the hill, or we might say like, imitating a French person, you know, using for example my car, she is not big or something because of course, in those languages they have masculine and feminine. And, sometimes ‘who' gets used where it certainly, for an inanimate object, for a thing you cannot use ‘who'. That's 100%. No exceptions. But going the other way, the fact that, the fact that I am happy, of course that's not a relative pronoun. It's so easy to get confused.

It's so easy to get confused.

But the house that I bought, the house which I bought, the person, the person that I admire the most, I think that sounds better than the person which I admire the most, of the person whom I admire the most. You know we can sure get ourselves confused. Can you imagine non native speakers? Of course they get confused. Yeah, I think we've covered that. I think our best advice to people is start noticing it because it is something that people have difficulty with. People who come from languages like you know, some of the Asian languages where the model is more that of you know, the on top of the hill house rather than the house which is on top of the hill, those people will have trouble with a structure that's different from their own language. Then you have people like say Russians or Germans who would say the house what is on top of the hill. So really, you just have to be sensitive to it, save ‘which' or save phrases, observe it, listen to it, get used to it and you will naturally start to say it properly I believe. Jill: I agree.

Steve: Thank you. Alright, so this is again, it's EnglighLingQ.com, LingQ.com and it's Steve and…

Jill: Jill.

Steve: Bye for now.

Forty-six: Relative Pronouns Sechsundvierzig: Relativpronomen Cuarenta y seis: pronombres relativos چهل و شش: ضمایر نسبی Quarante-six : Pronoms relatifs Quarantasei: Pronomi relativi 46歳関係代名詞 Keturiasdešimt šeši: Santykiniai įvardžiai Czterdzieści sześć: Zaimki względne Quarenta e seis: Pronomes relativos Сорок шесть: Относительные местоимения Fyrtiosex: Relativa pronomen Kırk altı: İlgi Zamirleri Сорок шість: Відносні займенники 四十六:关系代词 四十六:关系代词 四十六:關係代名詞

Steve: Hi Jill. 史蒂夫:嗨,吉尔。

Jill: Hi Steve. 吉尔:嗨,史蒂夫。 How are you? 你好吗?

Steve: I’m fine. 史蒂夫:我很好。 You know, I thought today that we would talk a little bit about the language and how it’s used. Знаете ли, мислех, че днес ще поговорим малко за езика и начина, по който се използва. 알다시피, 나는 오늘 우리가 언어와 그 사용법에 대해 조금 이야기 할 것이라고 생각했습니다. 你知道,我想今天我们会谈谈这种语言及其使用方式。 I want to talk in particular about something that is called in grammar terms the ‘relative pronoun' which sounds very complicated and sophisticated but basically what we’re talking about is in every language if you talk about a particular house or a particular person you’re going to say something like the house which is on the hill. Искам да поговорим по-специално за нещо, което в граматиката се нарича "относително местоимение", което звучи много сложно и сложно, но по същество става дума за това, че във всеки език, ако говорите за конкретна къща или конкретен човек, ще кажете нещо като къщата, която е на хълма. Quiero hablar en particular sobre algo que se llama en términos gramaticales el 'pronombre relativo' que suena muy complicado y sofisticado, pero básicamente de lo que estamos hablando es en todos los idiomas si hablas de una casa en particular o una persona en particular. Voy a decir algo como la casa que está en la colina. 我想特别谈谈在语法术语中称为“关系代词”的东西,它听起来非常复杂和复杂,但基本上我们所谈论的是每一种语言,如果你谈论一个特定的房子或一个特定的人你'我们要说的是山上的房子之类的话。 Right? 正确的? Or, Jill is the girl in the red dress. Или Джил е момичето с червената рокля. 或者,吉尔就是那个穿红裙子的女孩。 Do you have a red dress on? Имате ли червена рокля?

Jill: I sure do. Джил: Със сигурност.

Steve: Alright so what about Steve? Стив: Добре, а какво ще кажете за Стив? Which guy is Steve? Кой е Стив? ¿Qué tipo es Steve?

Jill: Steve is the guy with the glasses.

Steve: Right. Now, in some languages they do it differently. В някои езици това се прави по различен начин. They would say, the with the glasses guy, the wearing the red dress girl. Казваха: "Момчето с очилата", "Момичето с червената рокля". Dirían, el chico de las gafas, la chica del vestido rojo. We don’t do it that way in English, do we? На английски не го правим по този начин, нали?

Jill: Not at all, no. Джил: Съвсем не, не. Jill: Überhaupt nicht, nein. Jill: De nada, no. And most people have problems with pronouns, relative pronouns. En de meeste mensen hebben problemen met voornaamwoorden, relatieve voornaamwoorden.

Steve: And, I wonder what, you know I, we often say the best thing is to notice the language and notice the structures but one thing we can say is that first of all, which are these pronouns? Стив: И се чудя какво, знаете, често казваме, че най-доброто нещо е да забележим езика и структурите, но едно нещо, което можем да кажем, е, че преди всичко, кои са тези местоимения? Steve: Und, ich frage mich was, wissen Sie, wir sagen oft, dass es das Beste ist, die Sprache und die Strukturen zu bemerken, aber eines können wir zuerst sagen, was sind diese Pronomen? Name some of them. Посочете някои от тях. Nennen Sie einige davon.

Jill: ‘Which', ‘that', ‘with', no. Джил: "който", "който", "с", не. Steve: No. ‘Who'. Jill: ‘Who'. Steve: Alright. so there for example, right away, off the bat, as we say, right off the bat, the meal that I ate last night, the meal which I ate last night, is there any difference in your mind? така че например, веднага, от самото начало, както казваме, от самото начало, храната, която съм ял снощи, храната, която съм ял снощи, има ли някаква разлика според вас? Also zum Beispiel, sofort, auf Anhieb, wie wir sagen, auf Anhieb, das Essen, das ich gestern Abend gegessen habe, das Essen, das ich gestern Abend gegessen habe, gibt es einen Unterschied in Ihrer Meinung? entonces, por ejemplo, de inmediato, de inmediato, como decimos, de inmediato, la comida que comí anoche, la comida que comí anoche, ¿hay alguna diferencia en su mente? dus daar bijvoorbeeld, meteen, meteen, zoals we zeggen, meteen, de maaltijd die ik gisteravond heb gegeten, de maaltijd die ik gisteravond heb gegeten, is er enig verschil in je gedachten?

Jill: Well I was taught in high school by a, one of my English teachers who was a stickler for grammar rules that inanimate things like houses, you use ‘that' and you use ‘which' and ‘who' with people. Джил: В гимназията един от моите учители по английски език, който беше привърженик на граматическите правила, ме научи, че за неодушевени неща като къщите се използва "че", а за хората - "който" и "който". Jill: Nun, ich wurde in der High School von einem meiner Englischlehrer unterrichtet, der ein Verfechter von Grammatikregeln war, die Dinge wie Häuser unbelebt machen, man verwendet „das“ und man verwendet „welche“ und „wer“ mit Menschen. Jill: Bueno, a mí me enseñó en la escuela secundaria uno de mis profesores de inglés que era estricto con las reglas gramaticales que inaniman cosas como las casas, usas 'eso' y usas 'cuál' y 'quién' con las personas. So we were taught that you wouldn’t say the house ‘which' is over there, you would say the house ‘that' is over there. Also wurde uns beigebracht, dass man nicht das Haus sagen würde, „das“ dort drüben ist, sondern das Haus, das „das“ dort drüben ist. I mean, people do say with which all the time. Искам да кажа, че хората постоянно казват с което. I don’t know if you know, it’s a big deal but that is what I was actually taught. Не знам дали знаете, че това е голяма работа, но това всъщност ме научиха. Ich weiß nicht, ob Sie es wissen, es ist eine große Sache, aber das wurde mir tatsächlich beigebracht.

Steve: But you know, I think the point which you make, the point you have just made, the point which you made, they’re both acceptable. Стив: Но знаете ли, мисля, че въпросът, който повдигате, въпросът, който току-що повдигнахте, въпросът, който повдигнахте, и двата са приемливи. Steve: Aber wissen Sie, ich denke, der Punkt, den Sie machen, der Punkt, den Sie gerade gemacht haben, der Punkt, den Sie gemacht haben, sie sind beide akzeptabel. But, what I find is that I’m curious now. Но това, което открих, е, че сега съм любопитен. Aber was ich finde ist, dass ich jetzt neugierig bin. I want to know. I want to know which is correct and so I would go into LingQ or the Linguist and I would save ‘which' just to see what kind of examples turn up. Искам да знам кое е правилното и затова бих влязъл в LingQ или Linguist и бих запазил „which“, само за да видя какви примери ще се появят. Ich möchte wissen, was richtig ist, also würde ich in LingQ oder Linguist gehen und 'was' speichern, nur um zu sehen, welche Art von Beispielen auftauchen. Quiero saber cuál es correcto, así que iría a LingQ o al lingüista y guardaría 'cuál' solo para ver qué tipo de ejemplos aparecen. One of the things that we try to train people is to try to discover the language whether it be English or Japanese or Spanish, try to discover the language for yourself. Едно от нещата, които се опитваме да обучим хората, е да се опитате да откриете езика, независимо дали е английски, японски или испански, опитайте се да откриете езика за себе си. You will remember it better in my opinion. Das wirst du meiner Meinung nach besser in Erinnerung behalten.

One of the things that people have to be careful of whether we’re talking about ‘which' or ‘that' is some people get very sloppy with ‘which', even native speakers. Едно от нещата, за които хората трябва да внимават, независимо дали говорим за „кое“ или „това“, е, че някои хора стават много небрежни с „кое“, дори и носителите на езика. Eines der Dinge, auf die die Leute achten müssen, ob wir über „welche“ oder „das“ sprechen, ist, dass manche Leute mit „welche“ sehr schlampig werden, sogar Muttersprachler. Una de las cosas con las que la gente debe tener cuidado, ya sea que hablemos de 'cuál' o 'eso', es que algunas personas se vuelven muy descuidadas con 'cuál', incluso los hablantes nativos. They’ll say things like you know, I don’t like going to the interior because it gets so hot, which it was really hot last weekend. Те казват неща като например, че не обичам да ходя във вътрешността на града, защото става много горещо, а миналия уикенд беше наистина горещо. Sie werden Dinge sagen wie Sie wissen, ich gehe nicht gerne ins Innere, weil es so heiß wird, was letztes Wochenende wirklich heiß war. You know, I mean I’m exaggerating but often they’ll use the word which to connect. Знаете ли, искам да кажа, че преувеличавам, но често те използват думата "който", за да се свържат.

Jill: As a run on sentence. Джил: Като продължение на изречението. Jill: Als Satzlauf. Jill: Como una sentencia corrida. Instead of just starting a new sentence they throw it in there. Вместо да започнат ново изречение, те го добавят там. Anstatt einfach einen neuen Satz zu beginnen, werfen sie ihn dort hinein.

Steve: Not only is it a run on sentence but because the word ‘which' is supposed to stand for something else, it’s a pronoun it has to be clear just what specific item, noun, person, thing does this ‘which' represent. Стив: Това не само е изречение, но и защото думата "който" трябва да означава нещо друго, тя е местоимение, трябва да е ясно какъв точно предмет, съществително, човек, нещо представлява това "който". Steve: Es ist nicht nur eine Satzfolge, sondern weil das Wort „was“ für etwas anderes stehen soll, es ein Pronomen ist, muss klar sein, welchen spezifischen Gegenstand, welches Substantiv, welche Person, was dieses „was“ repräsentiert. You can’t just have it, you know, I don’t like swimming in the ocean. Не можеш просто да го имаш, нали знаеш, не обичам да плувам в океана. Du kannst es nicht einfach haben, weißt du, ich schwimme nicht gern im Meer. You could say which is why I don’t you know, have a boat so that there the ‘which' is clear because ‘that is why' can sometimes be covered by the word ‘which'. Можете да кажете "затова нямам лодка", за да е ясно "затова", защото "затова" понякога може да се покрие с думата "който". Man könnte sagen, warum ich weißt du nicht, ein Boot haben, damit das „was“ klar ist, weil „deshalb“ manchmal durch das Wort „das“ überdeckt werden kann. So, here again, we don’t like to have a lot of grammar rules. И тук отново не обичаме да имаме много граматически правила. We would, we prefer that people explore the language themselves. Предпочитаме хората сами да изследват езика. Part of the problem is that there are so many exceptions when you try to describe it with rules. I don’t know. What else could we say to help people?

Jill: Well, one thing I’ve noticed actually is a lot of people, I’ve noticed this a lot among German speakers and probably other groups but for sure among German speakers, they will often say ‘what' instead of ‘that'. The house ‘what' I went to, you know the place ‘what' I went to yesterday which is totally incorrect. Къщата, в която отидох, знаете мястото, в което отидох вчера, което е напълно погрешно. It’s the place ‘that' I went to. Това е мястото, "което" посетих. Steve: You know it’s interesting because in German they would use das which is that. Стив: Знаеш ли, това е интересно, защото на немски се използва das, което е това. The people who should have a problem would be like the Russians because there the word 'kotoryy', which means ‘what', is used as ‘which'. Хората, които би трябвало да имат проблем, са като руснаците, защото там думата "которий", която означава "какво", се използва като "който". So, I mean these are all similar words and it’s really just that in one language we use one and in another we use another word. И така, искам да кажа, че всички тези думи са сходни и всъщност става дума за това, че на един език използваме една, а на друг - друга дума.

But you’re quite right. Но сте напълно прав. I sometimes, the house ‘what' I bought is not correct. Понякога къщата, която купих, не е правилна. Jill: And actually another thing I was going to mention is I was thinking about it after we spoke and I think I was confused and I think it was my English teacher who was saying that ‘who' and ‘that' are used interchangeably and he was saying ‘who' is specific to a person. Джил: И всъщност друго нещо, което исках да спомена, е, че си мислех за това, след като говорихме, и мисля, че бях объркана и мисля, че това беше моят учител по английски, който казваше, че "who" и "that" се използват взаимозаменяемо, а той казваше, че "who" е специфично за човек. Jill: Eine andere Sache, die ich eigentlich erwähnen wollte, ist, dass ich darüber nachgedacht habe, nachdem wir gesprochen haben, und ich glaube, ich war verwirrt und ich glaube, es war mein Englischlehrer, der gesagt hat, dass „wer“ und „das“ synonym verwendet werden und er sagte, "wer" ist spezifisch für eine Person. You can’t use ‘who' and say the house who was on the hill. Не можете да използвате "кой" и да кажете къщата, която се намираше на хълма. You have to say the house ‘that' is on the hill. And, we often do say something like the person ‘that' I admire most but in reality it’s supposed to be the person ‘who' I admire most. Често казваме нещо от рода на "този" човек, на когото се възхищавам най-много, но в действителност би трябвало да е "този", на когото се възхищавам най-много. Und wir sagen oft so etwas wie die Person, „die“ ich am meisten bewundere, aber in Wirklichkeit sollte es die Person sein, „die“ ich am meisten bewundere. That’s what I was taught so not ‘which' but ‘who'. Така са ме учили, така че не "кой", а "кой". Steve: Well that’s the problem with rules. You’re better off to look at practice and I think if you said that person that I admire the most, I don’t think that’s wrong. По-добре е да погледнете практиката и мисля, че ако кажете, че човекът, на когото се възхищавам най-много, не мисля, че това е грешно. Es mejor que mires la práctica y creo que si dijiste esa persona que más admiro, no creo que esté mal. I, I think you’ll hear that all the time. Мисля, че ще го чувате постоянно.

Jill: Yeah, I’m not saying you won’t hear it but I’m saying in some text book somewhere it says ‘who' should be used with a person and ‘that' should be used with a thing. Джил: Да, не казвам, че няма да го чуете, но казвам, че в някой учебник някъде пише, че "кой" трябва да се използва за човек, а "това" - за нещо. So, but we say it all the time. И така, но ние го казваме постоянно. Also, aber wir sagen es die ganze Zeit. They have speakers say it all the time so I wouldn’t, and that’s the danger of reading a text book about grammar rules, is you know, it may tell you something and then you hear native speakers saying it the other way and you can’t understand why they’re saying something that this book told you was wrong. Те казват това през цялото време, така че аз не бих, и това е опасността от четенето на учебник за граматическите правила, е, знаете ли, той може да ви каже нещо, а след това да чуете носители на езика да го казват по друг начин и да не можете да разберете защо те казват нещо, което тази книга ви е казала, че е грешно. Sie haben Sprecher, die es die ganze Zeit sagen, also würde ich es nicht tun, und das ist die Gefahr, ein Lehrbuch über Grammatikregeln zu lesen, wissen Sie, es kann Ihnen etwas sagen, und dann hören Sie Muttersprachler, die es anders sagen, und Sie können Ich verstehe nicht, warum sie etwas sagen, von dem dieses Buch Ihnen sagt, dass es falsch ist.

Steve: Right. I think that’s where again, we get back to this idea of we encourage people to do a lot of listening, to listen to people who’s voices they like, listen to people who speak the way they would like to speak and just gradually start to imitate them. Мисля, че тук отново се връщаме към идеята да насърчаваме хората да слушат много, да слушат хора, чиито гласове им харесват, да слушат хора, които говорят по начина, по който биха искали да говорят, и постепенно да започнат да им подражават. I was just thinking it’s kind of funny, but when sometimes if we imitate an accent like you were saying German people might say the house ‘what' is on the hill, or we might say like, imitating a French person, you know, using for example my car, she is not big or something because of course, in those languages they have masculine and feminine. Просто си мислех, че е малко смешно, но понякога, ако имитираме акцент, както казахте, германците могат да кажат, че къщата "какво" е на хълма, или пък можем да кажем, имитирайки французин, например, колата ми, тя не е голяма или нещо подобно, защото, разбира се, в тези езици има мъжки и женски род. And, sometimes ‘who' gets used where it certainly, for an inanimate object, for a thing you cannot use ‘who'. И понякога "кой" се използва там, където със сигурност, за неодушевен предмет, за нещо, което не може да се използва "кой". Y, a veces, 'quién' se usa donde ciertamente, para un objeto inanimado, para una cosa, no puedes usar 'quién'. That’s 100%. No exceptions. Keine Ausnahmen. But going the other way, the fact that, the fact that I am happy, of course that’s not a relative pronoun. Но в обратната посока, фактът, че, фактът, че съм щастлив, разбира се, не е относително местоимение. It’s so easy to get confused.

It’s so easy to get confused.

But the house that I bought, the house which I bought, the person, the person that I admire the most, I think that sounds better than the person which I admire the most, of the person whom I admire the most. Но къщата, която купих, къщата, която купих, човекът, човекът, на когото се възхищавам най-много, мисля, че звучи по-добре от човекът, на когото се възхищавам най-много, на човекът, на когото се възхищавам най-много. You know we can sure get ourselves confused. Знаете, че можем да се объркаме. Sie wissen, dass wir uns sicher verwirren können. Can you imagine non native speakers? Können Sie sich Nicht-Muttersprachler vorstellen? Of course they get confused. Yeah, I think we’ve covered that. I think our best advice to people is start noticing it because it is something that people have difficulty with. People who come from languages like you know, some of the Asian languages where the model is more that of you know, the on top of the hill house rather than the house which is on top of the hill, those people will have trouble with a structure that’s different from their own language. Хората, които произхождат от езици, като например някои от азиатските езици, където моделът е по-скоро "къщата на върха на хълма", а не "къщата, която е на върха на хълма", ще имат проблеми със структура, различна от тази на техния език. Then you have people like say Russians or Germans who would say the house what is on top of the hill. След това има хора като руснаците или германците, които казват, че къщата е на върха на хълма. So really, you just have to be sensitive to it, save ‘which' or save phrases, observe it, listen to it, get used to it and you will naturally start to say it properly I believe. Jill: I agree.

Steve: Thank you. Alright, so this is again, it’s EnglighLingQ.com, LingQ.com and it’s Steve and…

Jill: Jill.

Steve: Bye for now.