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English LingQ Podcast 1.0, Forty-four: Grammar and Usage

Forty-four: Grammar and Usage

Steve: Hi Jill.

Jill: Hi Steve.

How are you today?

Steve: Oh I'm good. I'm good thank you. Now do you know what, that just reminds me of something. I said I'm good. That's incorrect but do you hear that a lot?

Jill: All the time. We say that all the time. A lot of people say I'm good. Some people say I'm fine, I'm fine thank you, I'm well, but I think most commonly here in North America people say I'm good.

Steve: I'm not entirely sure why that's wrong but I know it's wrong.

Jill: I don't know either.

Steve: Let me just think. Now, if I start to think, like good is an adjective. Fine is an adjective. Well is an adverb. I'm well. I don't know why you have to use an adverb instead of an adjective, do you?

Jill: Ah, you know, I don't know even if well is correct, more correct than fine or good. I'm not sure that it is. I think to me well almost implies more that I'm feeling well. I'm well, I'm healthy, I'm doing well.

Steve: Which makes me think in fact that well is an adjective even though it's very often an adverb. I guess, there are several things that come to my mind as we talk here.

One is that grammar is confusing.

Jill: Yes.

Steve: And, the second is that usage is constantly changing and that there is quite a range of acceptable uses so that grammar is not this precise definition of what you are allowed and not allowed to say. Rather there is a sort of usage pattern which we have to learn and it's a bit of a moving target. Maybe, I don't know if that's more true of English than of other languages but it's certainly true of English.

Do you find, for example if you're asked to explain why this sentence is correct and this other sentence is not correct, it's very difficult to do it very often.

Jill: Very difficult. I, I have a very hard time giving a rule or an explanation of why it's right or why it's wrong. It's just, it doesn't sound right, it's not natural, it's not how we would say it.

Steve: And, of course I suspect that even if you were a grammatician and gave me a complicated explanation I'm not sure it would help me. It may help. I think it may help. If I think of my Russian learning. If I've had enough experience that I've heard these kinds of structures so often and then I finally get an explanation and then maybe as we say, the penny drops.

Then after the fact the explanation can be useful but …

Jill: Just a beginner, first learning, first hearing these phrases, words, sentences, I think very often, just the explanation is too difficult to understand.

Steve: I agree. And, you know because I speak a variety of languages I've often been in a situation where I have to interpret for someone. This person could be, in my career it was either a diplomat or it could have been a business man or something and you would be surprised at how poorly people speak English. Even senior people in government or even worse in the business field because the senior government officials generally speak better but these business people, I mean I had to guess at what they were saying very often and then turn it into hopefully understandable Chinese or Japanese or whatever language I was translating into.

Not everyone, not every native speaker uses the language even correctly.

Jill: Great. There's a lot of people who write and speak poorly in English.

Steve: That's again, one of the reasons why at the Linguist and now at LingQ we think it's very important that people write and of course, we tell them write the way you speak, speak the way you write. Most people who teach language will say you know the written language is very different from the spoken language, which is true for the native speaker but the non native speaker, learning the language has a much more limited control of the language. It is very much in their interest to treat the two as the same so if they come to our system and they write something as if they were speaking, then we are able to pick up. It gives us like a footprint of that person's use of language.

Then we can say, alright, there's a certain latitude in terms of usage but you have now, you're outside normal usage so this is not correct. So, that's why, and you have of course corrected people's writing and it is a good way, don't you think, of finding out what people's problems are?

Jill: Oh yeah, of course. When we correct writing and people have a lot of problems with verb tenses or with prepositions, everybody has problems with prepositions and they have just as many problems with those things when they're speaking as they do when they're writing.

But, it's very difficult if you never speak with somebody which sometimes we don't on our site. We don't speak with everybody or maybe you speak with somebody for 15 minutes once a month or whatever it may be and then they want us to tell them what their biggest problems are. That's very difficult to do so it is must better if they submit writing, write how they speak and then we give them concrete examples or different phrases they can use and replace things for them so that they can then incorporate that into their vocabulary so they can speak better.

Steve: Well, that's right. My experience with Russian, I was on Skype the other night in fact, speaking with a person in Russian. I spoke for 30 minutes in Russian. It's the longest I've spoken in Russian ever and I kept on getting the same word wrong.

I said how do you say this again and he'd give me but I couldn't remember it because you know, the sweat was kind of forming on my forehead struggling to speak in Russian. There's just too much pressure and you're thinking of other things and you don't hear it that clearly so that's no time to correct people whereas if you write something and of course, now in the new LingQ the corrector will also record the corrected version in, therefore a native speaker will be recording, will be reading out the student tried to write which has now been corrected. Then the learner can listen to it over and over again and really pick up on how those things should be expressed so the two should, the writing and the speaking I think are, it's the instant diagnosis, the writing is, of where the problems are, the weaknesses are in the person's language.

So, I think it's very good that way but let's just continue on the subject of speaking. You know, another thing that comes up all the time is how important is an accent and I mean, I think we all have tried to imitate the native speaker. I mean in your French, for example you would like to speak as close to a French accent as possible, correct?

Jill: Of course, yes. One thing with accent though I should mention as was pointed out to me the other day too, that there are often a variety of accents in different languages and I think most people are more concerned with proper pronunciation within a certain accent. You know, I mean there's a Quebecois French accent or a French Parisian French accent and so I think depending on which accent you prefer you want proper pronunciation in that accent.

Steve: Right. But, and that is the goal so that's the sort of the ideal that you're working towards and I think everyone does that. Now, whether they're as you say, whether you choose to imitate, whether your ideal pronunciation is the Quebec French or a French French or the Spanish in Spain or the Spanish in Mexico, I mean that's your choice but yeah, you're trying to imitate that.

However, you may not achieve that. That's your model, that's your goal; that's fine but you may not achieve it. As long as you are understood then that's really good enough.

I mentioned to you the example of, we have a Swiss banker friend who has the big pronounced Swiss accent but he speaks phenomenally and he has an assistant who is from England who does not express himself as well in English as my Swiss banker does, so, and my Swiss banker has lived in Canada for 20 years and he has no complexes about his English and nor should he because he speaks extremely well so I say yes. If you want to work to get your pronunciation closer to that of the native speaker, to whatever native speaker you are trying to imitate, fine but you may not make it 100% and don't worry about it.

You had a discussion the other day with some of our learners and there was some difference of opinion on that.

Jill: Yeah. I mean, most of them, they were all fairly advanced speakers whose pronunciation is quite good already and they, to them I was trying to sort of tell them the same thing, you know. I understand you very well. It's really not that important if you don't' sound exactly like me or Steve or whoever but they were pretty, a couple of them at least were fairly adamant about wanting to sound as much like a native speaker as possible.

And, I think these are people, they're keen Linguist members, they work very hard on Linguist and I think they sort of have a passion for English learning so maybe they're perfectionists to a certain degree and so for them it's maybe more important than the average person.

Steve: Well and I think maybe we can end on the note that we want people to do what they want to do so people can pursue whatever interests them. It's just that we don't want people to feel pressure or to feel unhappy.

I've heard people say I don't like listening to myself speak English because I don't like my accent. What they are really saying is they feel that other people don't like their accent so they feel badly about their accent and that we don't want. But, if a person wants to pursue the ultimate in getting to sound like a native speaker, well there's nothing wrong with that either.

Okay Jill, thank you very much.

Jill: Thank you.

Forty-four: Grammar and Usage Vierundvierzig: Grammatik und Sprachgebrauch Σαράντα τέσσερα: Γραμματική και χρήση Cuarenta y cuatro: gramática y uso چهل و چهار: دستور زبان و کاربرد Quarantaquattro: Grammatica e uso 44文法と用法 마흔 넷: 마흔 넷: 문법과 사용법 Keturiasdešimt keturi: Gramatika ir vartosena Czterdzieści cztery: Gramatyka i użycie Quarenta e quatro: Gramática e uso Сорок четыре: Грамматика и словоупотребление Fyrtiofyra: Grammatik och användning Kırk dört: Dilbilgisi ve Kullanım Сорок чотири: Граматика та вживання 44:语法和用法 四十四:文法和用法

Steve: Hi Jill. Steve: Hallo Jill.

Jill: Hi Steve.

How are you today? Wie geht es Ihnen heute?

Steve: Oh I'm good. I'm good thank you. Now do you know what, that just reminds me of something. Знаеш ли какво, това ми напомни за нещо. Ahora, ¿sabes qué? Eso me recuerda algo. Şimdi biliyor musunuz, bu bana bir şey hatırlattı. I said I'm good. Dije que estoy bien. That's incorrect but do you hear that a lot?

Jill: All the time. We say that all the time. A lot of people say I'm good. Some people say I'm fine, I'm fine thank you, I'm well, but I think most commonly here in North America people say I'm good. Някои хора казват "Добре съм", "Благодаря", "Добре съм", но мисля, че най-често тук, в Северна Америка, хората казват "Добре съм". برخی از مردم می گویند من خوبم، من خوبم، متشکرم، من خوب هستم، اما فکر می کنم بیشتر در اینجا در آمریکای شمالی مردم می گویند من خوب هستم.

Steve: I'm not entirely sure why that's wrong but I know it's wrong. استیو: من کاملاً مطمئن نیستم که چرا این اشتباه است، اما می دانم که اشتباه است.

Jill: I don't know either. جیل: من هم نمی دانم.

Steve: Let me just think. Стив: Нека само помисля. Now, if I start to think, like good is an adjective. Сега, ако започна да мисля, че "добър" е прилагателно. Nun, wenn ich anfange zu denken, wie gut ist ein Adjektiv. Fine is an adjective. Well is an adverb. gut ist ein Adverb. I'm well. Добре съм. Mir geht es gut. I don't know why you have to use an adverb instead of an adjective, do you? Не знам защо трябва да използвате наречие вместо прилагателно, нали? Ich weiß nicht, warum Sie ein Adverb anstelle eines Adjektivs verwenden müssen, oder? من نمی دانم چرا باید به جای صفت از قید استفاده کنید، درست است؟ Я не знаю, почему нужно использовать наречие вместо прилагательного, не так ли?

Jill: Ah, you know, I don't know even if well is correct, more correct than fine or good. Джил: Знаеш ли, не знам дали е правилно, по-правилно от "добре" или "добре". Jill: Ah, weißt du, ich weiß nicht einmal, ob gut richtig ist, eher richtig als gut oder gut. جیل: آه، می‌دانی، نمی‌دانم حتی خوب درست است، درست‌تر از خوب یا خوب است. Jill: Ah, biliyorsun, iyi mi, iyi mi, iyi mi, yoksa doğru mu, bilmiyorum. I'm not sure that it is. Не съм сигурен, че е така. Ich bin mir nicht sicher, ob es das ist. مطمئن نیستم که هست. I think to me well almost implies more that I'm feeling well. Мисля, че за мен доброто състояние почти означава, че се чувствам добре. Ich denke, gut bedeutet für mich fast mehr, dass es mir gut geht. Sanırım bana göre, neredeyse iyi hissetmemi daha çok ima ediyor. I'm well, I'm healthy, I'm doing well. Добре съм, здрав съм, справям се добре. Mir geht es gut, mir geht es gut, mir geht es gut. Ben iyiyim, ben sağlıklıyım, iyiyim.

Steve: Which makes me think in fact that well is an adjective even though it's very often an adverb. Стив: Това ме кара да мисля, че всъщност well е прилагателно, въпреки че много често е наречие. Steve: Was mich tatsächlich glauben lässt, dass gut ein Adjektiv ist, obwohl es sehr oft ein Adverb ist. استیو: این باعث می شود که در واقع فکر کنم خوب یک صفت است حتی اگر اغلب یک قید است. Steve: Bu da beni aslında bir zarf olmasına rağmen iyi bir sıfat olduğunu düşünmemi sağlıyor. I guess, there are several things that come to my mind as we talk here. Предполагам, че има няколко неща, които ми идват наум, докато говорим тук. Ich schätze, es gibt mehrere Dinge, die mir in den Sinn kommen, während wir hier reden. حدس می زنم، وقتی اینجا صحبت می کنیم، چندین چیز به ذهن من می رسد. Sanırım, burada konuştuğumuzda aklıma gelen birkaç şey var.

One is that grammar is confusing. Първата е, че граматиката е объркваща. Einer ist, dass die Grammatik verwirrend ist. یکی اینکه گرامر گیج کننده است. Birincisi gramer kafa karıştırıcı.

Jill: Yes. Jill: Ja.

Steve: And, the second is that usage is constantly changing and that there is quite a range of acceptable uses so that grammar is not this precise definition of what you are allowed and not allowed to say. Стив: Втората причина е, че употребата постоянно се променя и че има доста широк спектър от приемливи употреби, така че граматиката не е точно определение на това, какво е позволено и какво не е позволено да се каже. استیو: و دوم این که کاربرد دائماً در حال تغییر است و طیف وسیعی از کاربردهای قابل قبول وجود دارد، به طوری که گرامر این تعریف دقیق از آنچه شما مجاز هستید و مجاز به بیان آن نیستید نیست. Steve : Et, la seconde est que l'usage change constamment et qu'il y a toute une gamme d'utilisations acceptables de sorte que la grammaire n'est pas cette définition précise de ce que vous êtes autorisé et non autorisé à dire. Steve: Ve ikincisi, kullanımın sürekli olarak değiştiği ve oldukça kabul edilebilir bir kullanım aralığı olduğu için, dilbilgisinin sizin izin verdiğiniz ve söyleyebilmenizin izin vermediği kesin bir tanımı olmaması. Rather there is a sort of usage pattern which we have to learn and it's a bit of a moving target. По-скоро има някакъв модел на използване, който трябва да научим и който е малко подвижна цел. Vielmehr gibt es eine Art Nutzungsmuster, das wir lernen müssen, und das ist ein bisschen ein bewegliches Ziel. Más bien, hay una especie de patrón de uso que tenemos que aprender y es un poco como un objetivo en movimiento. بلکه یک نوع الگوی استفاده وجود دارد که باید یاد بگیریم و کمی هدف متحرک است. Daha ziyade öğrenmemiz gereken bir çeşit kullanım deseni vardır ve bu biraz hareketli bir hedeftir. Швидше, є свого роду шаблон використання, який ми повинні вивчити, і це трохи рухома ціль. Maybe, I don't know if that's more true of English than of other languages but it's certainly true of English. Може би, не знам дали това е по-вярно за английския език, отколкото за други езици, но със сигурност е вярно за английския. Vielleicht, ich weiß nicht, ob das auf Englisch mehr zutrifft als auf andere Sprachen, aber es trifft auf jeden Fall auf Englisch zu. شاید، من نمی دانم که آیا این در مورد انگلیسی بیشتر از سایر زبان ها صادق است یا خیر، اما مطمئناً در مورد انگلیسی صادق است. Belki, İngilizce'nin diğer dillerden daha doğru olup olmadığını bilmiyorum, ama kesinlikle İngilizce için doğrudur.

Do you find, for example if you're asked to explain why this sentence is correct and this other sentence is not correct, it's very difficult to do it very often. Смятате ли, че ако ви помолят да обясните например защо това изречение е правилно, а другото не е правилно, много често ви е трудно да го направите. Finden Sie zum Beispiel, wenn Sie gefragt werden, warum dieser Satz richtig ist und dieser andere Satz nicht richtig ist, ist es sehr schwierig, dies sehr oft zu tun. آیا متوجه می‌شوید، مثلاً اگر از شما خواسته شود توضیح دهید که چرا این جمله صحیح است و این جمله دیگر صحیح نیست، انجام آن اغلب بسیار دشوار است. Örneğin, bu cümlenin neden doğru olduğunu ve bu diğer cümlenin neden doğru olmadığını açıklamanız istenirse, bunu çok sık yapmak çok zor.

Jill: Very difficult. جیل: خیلی سخته. I, I have a very hard time giving a rule or an explanation of why it's right or why it's wrong. Много ми е трудно да дам правило или обяснение защо това е правилно или защо е погрешно. Mir, mir fällt es sehr schwer, eine Regel oder eine Erklärung dafür zu geben, warum es richtig oder falsch ist. A mí me cuesta mucho dar una regla o una explicación de por qué está bien o por qué está mal. من، برای من خیلی سخت است که یک قانون یا توضیحی در مورد چرایی درست یا نادرستی آن بدهم. It's just, it doesn't sound right, it's not natural, it's not how we would say it. Просто не звучи правилно, не е естествено, не е така, както бихме го казали ние. Es ist nur, es klingt nicht richtig, es ist nicht natürlich, es ist nicht so, wie wir es sagen würden. فقط، درست به نظر نمی رسد، طبیعی نیست، اینطور نیست که ما آن را بگوییم. C'est juste que ça ne sonne pas bien, ce n'est pas naturel, ce n'est pas comme ça qu'on le dirait. Sadece doğru değil, doğal değil, nasıl söyleyeceğimiz değil.

Steve: And, of course I suspect that even if you were a grammatician and gave me a complicated explanation I'm not sure it would help me. Стив: И, разбира се, подозирам, че дори да сте граматик и да ми дадете сложно обяснение, не съм сигурен, че то ще ми помогне. Steve: Und natürlich vermute ich, dass selbst wenn Sie ein Grammatiker wären und mir eine komplizierte Erklärung geben würden, ich nicht sicher bin, ob es mir helfen würde. استیو: و البته من شک دارم که حتی اگر شما یک دستور زبان بودید و توضیح پیچیده ای به من می دادید، مطمئن نیستم که به من کمک کند. Steve: Tabii ki, bir gramer uzmanı olsanız ve bana karmaşık bir açıklama yapsanız bile bana yardım edeceğinden emin olmadığımı sanıyorum. It may help. Es kann helfen. ممکن است کمک کند. Yardımcı olabilirim. I think it may help. من فکر می کنم ممکن است کمک کند. Je pense que cela peut aider. If I think of my Russian learning. Ако си спомня за моето изучаване на руски език. Wenn ich an mein Russischlernen denke. اگر به یادگیری زبان روسی خود فکر کنم. Rus öğrenimi düşünürsem. If I've had enough experience that I've heard these kinds of structures so often and then I finally get an explanation and then maybe as we say, the penny drops. Ако съм имал достатъчно опит, за да чувам тези структури толкова често, и тогава най-накрая получа обяснение и тогава може би, както казваме, стотинката пада. Wenn ich genug Erfahrung habe, dass ich solche Strukturen so oft gehört habe und dann endlich eine Erklärung bekomme, dann fällt vielleicht wie gesagt der Groschen. Si he tenido suficiente experiencia que he escuchado este tipo de estructuras con tanta frecuencia y luego finalmente obtengo una explicación y luego tal vez, como decimos, cae el centavo. اگر تجربه کافی داشته باشم که این نوع ساختارها را اغلب شنیده باشم و در نهایت توضیحی دریافت کنم و شاید همانطور که می گوییم، پنی کاهش یابد. Si j'ai suffisamment d'expérience pour entendre ce genre de structures si souvent et que j'obtiens finalement une explication, et peut-être que, comme on dit, le sou tombe. Jeśli mam wystarczająco dużo doświadczenia, że słyszałem tego rodzaju struktury tak często, a potem w końcu otrzymuję wyjaśnienie i wtedy może, jak to mówimy, grosz spada. Bu tür yapıları çok sık duyduğum kadar deneyimlediysem ve sonunda bir açıklama yaptıktan sonra belki de dediğimiz gibi kuruş düşüyor.

Then after the fact the explanation can be useful but … След това обяснението може да бъде полезно, но ... Dann im Nachhinein kann die Erklärung nützlich sein, aber … بعد از این واقعیت توضیح می تواند مفید باشد اما… Daha sonra açıklamadan sonra açıklama yararlı olabilir ama…

Jill: Just a beginner, first learning, first hearing these phrases, words, sentences, I think very often, just the explanation is too difficult to understand. Jill: Nur ein Anfänger, zuerst lernen, zuerst diese Sätze, Wörter, Sätze hören, denke ich sehr oft, nur die Erklärung ist zu schwer zu verstehen. جیل: فقط یک مبتدی، در ابتدا یاد می‌گیرم، اولین بار با شنیدن این عبارات، کلمات، جملات، فکر می‌کنم خیلی وقت‌ها، درک توضیح آن خیلی سخت است.

Steve: I agree. Stefan: Ich stimme zu. استیو: موافقم. And, you know because I speak a variety of languages I've often been in a situation where I have to interpret for someone. И тъй като говоря различни езици, често съм попадала в ситуация, в която трябва да превеждам на някого. Und weil ich verschiedene Sprachen spreche, war ich oft in einer Situation, in der ich für jemanden dolmetschen musste. و، می دانید، چون من به زبان های مختلفی صحبت می کنم، اغلب در موقعیتی بوده ام که باید برای کسی ترجمه کنم. Et, vous savez, parce que je parle plusieurs langues, j'ai souvent été dans une situation où je dois interpréter pour quelqu'un. Biliyorsunuz, çünkü çoğu zaman birileri için yorumlamak zorunda olduğum bir durumda olduğum çeşitli dillerden bahsediyorum. This person could be, in my career it was either a diplomat or it could have been a business man or something and you would be surprised at how poorly people speak English. В моята кариера този човек може да е или дипломат, или бизнесмен, или нещо друго и ще се изненадате колко зле говорят английски хората. Diese Person könnte in meiner Karriere entweder ein Diplomat oder ein Geschäftsmann oder so etwas gewesen sein, und Sie wären überrascht, wie schlecht die Leute Englisch sprechen. این شخص می تواند باشد، در حرفه من یا یک دیپلمات بود یا می توانست یک تاجر یا چیز دیگری باشد و شما از اینکه مردم چقدر انگلیسی ضعیف صحبت می کنند شگفت زده می شوید. Cette personne pourrait être, dans ma carrière, c'était soit un diplomate, soit un homme d'affaires ou quelque chose comme ça et vous seriez surpris de voir à quel point les gens parlent mal l'anglais. Even senior people in government or even worse in the business field because the senior government officials generally speak better but these business people, I mean I had to guess at what they were saying very often and then turn it into hopefully understandable Chinese or Japanese or whatever language I was translating into. Дори висши държавни служители или още по-зле в сферата на бизнеса, защото висшите държавни служители обикновено говорят по-добре, но тези хора от бизнеса, тоест, много често ми се налагаше да гадая какво казват и след това да го превръщам в разбираем китайски, японски или какъвто и да е друг език, на който превеждах. Sogar hochrangige Leute in der Regierung oder noch schlimmer im Geschäftsfeld, weil die hochrangigen Regierungsbeamten im Allgemeinen besser sprechen, aber diese Geschäftsleute, ich meine, ich musste sehr oft erraten, was sie sagten, und es dann in hoffentlich verständliches Chinesisch oder Japanisch oder was auch immer umwandeln Sprache, in die ich übersetzte. حتی افراد ارشد در دولت یا حتی بدتر از آن در زمینه تجارت، زیرا مقامات ارشد دولتی عموماً بهتر صحبت می کنند، اما این افراد تجاری، منظورم این است که من مجبور بودم آنچه را که می گویند اغلب حدس بزنم و سپس آن را به چینی یا ژاپنی یا هر چیز دیگری تبدیل کنم. زبانی که به آن ترجمه می کردم Même les hauts fonctionnaires du gouvernement ou pire encore dans le domaine des affaires parce que les hauts fonctionnaires du gouvernement parlent généralement mieux, mais ces hommes d'affaires, je veux dire, je devais deviner ce qu'ils disaient très souvent, puis le transformer en chinois ou en japonais, espérons-le, compréhensible ou autre langue dans laquelle je traduisais. Üst düzey hükümet yetkilileri genel olarak daha iyi konuşsalar da, iş dünyasında hükümetin üst düzey yöneticileri ya da daha da kötüsü bile, iş dünyasında daha sık konuştuklarımı kastettim. çeviri yaptığım dil. Навіть високопоставлені люди в уряді або ще гірше в бізнесі, тому що високопоставлені урядовці зазвичай говорять краще, але ці бізнесмени, я маю на увазі, що я повинен був дуже часто здогадуватися про те, що вони говорили, а потім перетворити це на, сподіваюся, зрозумілий китайський чи японський чи що завгодно мова, на яку я перекладав.

Not everyone, not every native speaker uses the language even correctly. Не всеки, не всеки носител на езика използва езика дори правилно. نه همه، نه هر زبان مادری حتی به درستی از زبان استفاده نمی کند. Herkes değil, her anadili dili bile dili doğru kullanmaz.

Jill: Great. جیل: عالیه There's a lot of people who write and speak poorly in English. افراد زیادی هستند که به زبان انگلیسی ضعیف می نویسند و صحبت می کنند.

Steve: That's again, one of the reasons why at the Linguist and now at LingQ we think it's very important that people write and of course, we tell them write the way you speak, speak the way you write. استیو: باز هم این یکی از دلایلی است که چرا در Linguist و اکنون در LingQ فکر می کنیم بسیار مهم است که مردم بنویسند و البته به آنها می گوییم طوری که شما صحبت می کنید بنویسید، همانطور که می نویسید صحبت کنید. Стів: Це знову ж таки одна з причин, чому в Linguist, а тепер і в LingQ, ми вважаємо, що дуже важливо, щоб люди писали, і, звичайно, ми говоримо їм писати так, як ви говорите, говорити так, як ви пишете. Most people who teach language will say you know the written language is very different from the spoken language, which is true for the native speaker but the non native speaker, learning the language has a much more limited control of the language. Повечето хора, които преподават езици, ще кажат, че знаете, че писменият език е много различен от говоримия, което е вярно за носителя на езика, но човек, за когото езикът не е роден, има много по-ограничен контрол върху него. Die meisten Leute, die Sprache unterrichten, werden sagen, dass Sie wissen, dass sich die geschriebene Sprache sehr von der gesprochenen Sprache unterscheidet, was für den Muttersprachler gilt, aber der Nicht-Muttersprachler hat beim Erlernen der Sprache eine viel eingeschränktere Kontrolle über die Sprache. اکثر افرادی که زبان را آموزش می دهند، می گویند که می دانید زبان نوشتاری با زبان گفتاری بسیار متفاوت است، که این امر در مورد زبان مادری صادق است، اما افراد غیر بومی، یادگیری زبان کنترل بسیار محدودتری بر زبان دارد. La plupart des personnes qui enseignent la langue diront que vous savez que la langue écrite est très différente de la langue parlée, ce qui est vrai pour le locuteur natif mais le locuteur non natif, apprendre la langue a un contrôle beaucoup plus limité de la langue. Dil öğreten çoğu kişi, yazılı dilin konuşulan dilden çok farklı olduğunu söyler. Bu, anadili için doğrudur, fakat ana dili olmayan bir dil olan dilin öğrenilmesi, dilin çok daha sınırlı bir kontrole sahip olmasını sağlar. Більшість людей, які викладають мову, скажуть, що ви знаєте, що письмова мова дуже відрізняється від розмовної, що справедливо для носія мови, але той, хто не є носієм мови, вивчає мову має набагато більш обмежений контроль над мовою. It is very much in their interest to treat the two as the same so if they come to our system and they write something as if they were speaking, then we are able to pick up. В техен интерес е да третират двете неща като едно и също, така че ако дойдат в нашата система и напишат нещо, сякаш говорят, ние ще можем да го възприемем. Es ist sehr in ihrem Interesse, die beiden gleich zu behandeln, wenn sie also zu unserem System kommen und etwas schreiben, als würden sie sprechen, dann können wir aufgreifen. Les interesa mucho tratar a los dos como iguales, de modo que si llegan a nuestro sistema y escriben algo como si estuvieran hablando, entonces podemos responder. خیلی به نفع آنهاست که با این دو یکسان رفتار کنند، بنابراین اگر آنها به سیستم ما بیایند و چیزی بنویسند که انگار دارند صحبت می کنند، ما می توانیم آن را انتخاب کنیم. Il est tout à fait dans leur intérêt de traiter les deux de la même manière, donc s'ils viennent dans notre système et qu'ils écrivent quelque chose comme s'ils parlaient, alors nous pouvons capter. İkisine aynı muameleyi yapmak onların çok işine geliyor, bu yüzden sistemimize gelirlerse ve konuşuyormuş gibi bir şey yazarlarsa, o zaman biz bunu anlayabiliyoruz. Дуже в їхніх інтересах ставитися до двох як до однакових, тому якщо вони приходять до нашої системи і пишуть щось так, ніби вони говорять, ми можемо підхопити. It gives us like a footprint of that person's use of language. Той ни дава нещо като отпечатък на езиковата употреба на този човек. Es gibt uns wie einen Fußabdruck des Sprachgebrauchs dieser Person. Nos da como una huella del uso del lenguaje de esa persona. مانند ردپایی از استفاده آن شخص از زبان به ما می دهد. Daje nam to jakby ślad używania języka przez tę osobę. Bize o kişinin dil kullanımını bir ayak izi gibi veriyor.

Then we can say, alright, there's a certain latitude in terms of usage but you have now, you're outside normal usage so this is not correct. Тогава можем да кажем: добре, има известна свобода на действие по отношение на използването, но сега сте извън нормалното използване, така че това не е правилно. Dann können wir sagen, in Ordnung, es gibt einen gewissen Spielraum in Bezug auf die Verwendung, aber Sie haben jetzt, Sie befinden sich außerhalb des normalen Gebrauchs, also ist dies nicht korrekt. Entonces podemos decir, está bien, hay cierta latitud en términos de uso, pero ahora tienes, estás fuera del uso normal, por lo que esto no es correcto. Ensuite, nous pouvons dire, d'accord, il y a une certaine latitude en termes d'utilisation, mais vous avez maintenant, vous êtes en dehors de l'utilisation normale, donc ce n'est pas correct. Öyleyse, diyebiliriz ki, kullanım açısından belli bir enlem var ama siz şu anda normal kullanımın dışındasınız, bu doğru değil. So, that's why, and you have of course corrected people's writing and it is a good way, don't you think, of finding out what people's problems are? Ето защо, разбира се, сте поправяли писмените работи на хората и това е добър начин, не мислите ли, да разберете какви са проблемите на хората? Das ist der Grund, und Sie haben natürlich die Texte der Leute korrigiert, und finden Sie nicht, das ist ein guter Weg, um herauszufinden, was die Probleme der Leute sind? Öyleyse, işte bu yüzden, ve tabii ki insanların yazılarını düzelttiniz ve bu iyi bir yöntem, insanların sorunlarının ne olduğunu bulmak için değil mi?

Jill: Oh yeah, of course. When we correct writing and people have a lot of problems with verb tenses or with prepositions, everybody has problems with prepositions and they have just as many problems with those things when they're speaking as they do when they're writing. Когато поправяме писането и хората имат много проблеми с глаголните времена или с предлозите, всички имат проблеми с предлозите и имат също толкова проблеми с тези неща, когато говорят, колкото и когато пишат. Wenn wir das Schreiben korrigieren und die Leute viele Probleme mit Zeitformen oder Präpositionen haben, haben alle Probleme mit Präpositionen, und sie haben damit genauso viele Probleme, wenn sie sprechen, wie wenn sie schreiben.

But, it's very difficult if you never speak with somebody which sometimes we don't on our site. Но е много трудно, ако никога не говорите с някого, което понякога не се случва на нашия сайт. Aber es ist sehr schwierig, wenn Sie nie mit jemandem sprechen, was wir auf unserer Website manchmal nicht tun. Mais, c'est très difficile si vous ne parlez jamais avec quelqu'un, ce que parfois nous ne faisons pas sur notre site. Ancak, bazen sitemizde bulunmayan biriyle konuşmazsanız çok zordur. We don't speak with everybody or maybe you speak with somebody for 15 minutes once a month or whatever it may be and then they want us to tell them what their biggest problems are. Не говорим с всички или може би разговаряте с някого за 15 минути веднъж месечно или каквото и да е, а после той иска да му кажем кои са най-големите му проблеми. Wir sprechen nicht mit jedem, oder vielleicht sprichst du einmal im Monat 15 Minuten mit jemandem oder was auch immer, und dann wollen sie, dass wir ihnen sagen, was ihre größten Probleme sind. Nous ne parlons pas avec tout le monde ou peut-être que vous parlez avec quelqu'un pendant 15 minutes une fois par mois ou quoi que ce soit et ensuite ils veulent que nous leur disions quels sont leurs plus gros problèmes. That's very difficult to do so it is must better if they submit writing, write how they speak and then we give them concrete examples or different phrases they can use and replace things for them so that they can then incorporate that into their vocabulary so they can speak better. Това е много трудно да се направи, така че трябва да е по-добре, ако те представят писмено, пишат как говорят и след това ние им даваме конкретни примери или различни фрази, които могат да използват, и заместваме нещата за тях, така че те могат да включат това в речника си, за да могат да говорят по-добре. Bunu yapmak çok zor, yazı yazmaları, nasıl konuştuklarını yazmaları daha iyi olmalı ve sonra onlara kullanabilecekleri somut örnekler veya farklı ifadeler veriyoruz ve onlar için bir şeyleri değiştiriyoruz, böylece bunları kelime dağarcıklarına dahil edebiliyorlar. daha iyi konuş.

Steve: Well, that's right. My experience with Russian, I was on Skype the other night in fact, speaking with a person in Russian. Опитът ми с руския език е такъв, че онази вечер в Skype говорих с човек на руски език. I spoke for 30 minutes in Russian. It's the longest I've spoken in Russian ever and I kept on getting the same word wrong. Това е най-дългият ми разговор на руски език, а аз продължавах да бъркам една и съща дума. Es ist das längste, was ich je auf Russisch gesprochen habe, und ich habe immer wieder das gleiche Wort falsch verstanden. C'est le plus long que j'ai jamais parlé en russe et je n'arrêtais pas de me tromper sur le même mot. Şimdiye kadar Rusça'da en uzun konuştum ve aynı kelimeyi yanlış tutmaya devam ettim.

I said how do you say this again and he'd give me but I couldn't remember it because you know, the sweat was kind of forming on my forehead struggling to speak in Russian. Попитах го как се казва това, а той ми отговори, но аз не можех да си го спомня, защото, знаете ли, по челото ми се стичаше пот и се мъчех да говоря на руски. Ich sagte, wie sagst du das noch einmal, und er würde es mir geben, aber ich konnte mich nicht daran erinnern, weil sich der Schweiß auf meiner Stirn bildete und mich abmühte, Russisch zu sprechen. Dije cómo dices esto de nuevo y me dijo, pero no podía recordarlo porque ya sabes, el sudor se estaba formando en mi frente luchando por hablar en ruso. J'ai dit comment tu dis ça encore et il me l'a donné mais je ne m'en souviens pas parce que tu sais, la sueur se formait un peu sur mon front, j'avais du mal à parler en russe. There's just too much pressure and you're thinking of other things and you don't hear it that clearly so that's no time to correct people whereas if you write something and of course, now in the new LingQ the corrector will also record the corrected version in, therefore a native speaker will be recording, will be reading out the student tried to write which has now been corrected. Просто има твърде много напрежение и вие мислите за други неща и не чувате толкова ясно, така че няма време да поправяте хората, докато ако напишете нещо и, разбира се, сега в новия LingQ коректорът ще запише и коригираната версия, следователно носител на езика ще запише, ще прочете това, което ученикът се е опитал да напише и което вече е било коригирано. Es gibt einfach zu viel Druck und du denkst an andere Dinge und du hörst es nicht so deutlich, also ist das keine Zeit, Leute zu korrigieren, während wenn du etwas schreibst und natürlich jetzt im neuen LingQ der Korrektor auch das Korrigierte aufzeichnet Version in, also wird ein Muttersprachler aufnehmen, wird der Student vorlesen, der versucht hat zu schreiben, was jetzt korrigiert wurde. Il y a juste trop de pression et vous pensez à d'autres choses et vous ne l'entendez pas aussi clairement donc ce n'est pas le moment de corriger les gens alors que si vous écrivez quelque chose et bien sûr, maintenant dans le nouveau LingQ le correcteur enregistrera aussi le corrigé version in, donc un locuteur natif enregistrera, lira l'élève qui a essayé d'écrire et qui a maintenant été corrigé. Then the learner can listen to it over and over again and really pick up on how those things should be expressed so the two should, the writing and the speaking I think are, it's the instant diagnosis, the writing is, of where the problems are, the weaknesses are in the person's language. След това обучаемият може да го слуша отново и отново и наистина да разбере как трябва да се изразяват тези неща, така че двете, писането и говоренето, мисля, че са незабавна диагноза, писането е за това къде са проблемите, слабостите в езика на човека. Daha sonra öğrenci bunu tekrar tekrar dinleyebilir ve bu şeylerin nasıl ifade edilmesi gerektiğini gerçekten kavrayabilir, bu yüzden bu ikisi, yazma ve konuşma, bence, sorunların nerede olduğunu, kişinin dilindeki zayıflıkları anında teşhis eder.

So, I think it's very good that way but let's just continue on the subject of speaking. Така че мисля, че това е много добре, но нека продължим с темата за говоренето. Donc, je pense que c'est très bien ainsi, mais continuons sur le sujet de la parole. You know, another thing that comes up all the time is how important is an accent and I mean, I think we all have tried to imitate the native speaker. Знаете ли, друго нещо, което се появява постоянно, е колко важен е акцентът и имам предвид, че мисля, че всички сме се опитвали да имитираме носителя на езика. I mean in your French, for example you would like to speak as close to a French accent as possible, correct? Имам предвид, че например във френския си език бихте искали да говорите с възможно най-близък до френския акцент, нали?

Jill: Of course, yes. One thing with accent though I should mention as was pointed out to me the other day too, that there are often a variety of accents in different languages and I think most people are more concerned with proper pronunciation within a certain accent. Едно нещо с акцент, макар че трябва да спомена, както ми беше посочено на другия ден също, че често има различни акценти в различни езици и мисля, че повечето хора са по-загрижени за правилното произношение в рамките на определен акцент. Eine Sache mit Akzent sollte ich jedoch erwähnen, wie mir neulich auch gesagt wurde, dass es oft eine Vielzahl von Akzenten in verschiedenen Sprachen gibt und ich denke, die meisten Menschen sind mehr besorgt über die richtige Aussprache innerhalb eines bestimmten Akzents. Geçen gün bana da belirtildiği gibi aksanla ilgili bir hususa değinmeliyim, farklı dillerde genellikle çeşitli aksanlar vardır ve bence çoğu insan belirli bir aksan içinde doğru telaffuzla daha çok ilgilenir. You know, I mean there's a Quebecois French accent or a French Parisian French accent and so I think depending on which accent you prefer you want proper pronunciation in that accent. Знаете ли, имам предвид, че има квебекски френски акцент или парижки френски акцент и затова смятам, че в зависимост от това кой акцент предпочитате, искате правилно произношение с този акцент. Vous savez, je veux dire qu'il y a un accent français québécois ou un accent français français parisien et donc je pense que selon l'accent que vous préférez, vous voulez une prononciation correcte dans cet accent.

Steve: Right. But, and that is the goal so that's the sort of the ideal that you're working towards and I think everyone does that. Но това е целта, така че това е идеалът, към който се стремите, и мисля, че всеки го прави. Mais, et c'est le but, donc c'est le genre d'idéal vers lequel vous travaillez et je pense que tout le monde le fait. Now, whether they're as you say, whether you choose to imitate, whether your ideal pronunciation is the Quebec French or a French French or the Spanish in Spain or the Spanish in Mexico, I mean that's your choice but yeah, you're trying to imitate that. Дали те са, както казвате, дали избирате да имитирате, дали идеалното ви произношение е квебекският френски или френският френски или испанският в Испания или испанският в Мексико, искам да кажа, че това е ваш избор, но да, вие се опитвате да имитирате това.

However, you may not achieve that. Möglicherweise erreichen Sie dies jedoch nicht. Cependant, vous ne pouvez pas y parvenir. That's your model, that's your goal; that's fine but you may not achieve it. As long as you are understood then that's really good enough. Стига да сте разбрани, това наистина е достатъчно. Solange Sie verstanden werden, ist das wirklich gut genug.

I mentioned to you the example of, we have a Swiss banker friend who has the big pronounced Swiss accent but he speaks phenomenally and he has an assistant who is from England who does not express himself as well in English as my Swiss banker does, so, and my Swiss banker has lived in Canada for 20 years and he has no complexes about his English and nor should he because he speaks extremely well so I say yes. Споменах ви примера с един приятел швейцарски банкер, който има силно изразен швейцарски акцент, но говори феноменално, и има асистент от Англия, който не се изразява толкова добре на английски, колкото швейцарския банкер, така че, а швейцарският ми банкер живее в Канада от 20 години и няма никакви комплекси относно английския си, а и не би трябвало, защото говори изключително добре, така че казвам "да". Ich habe Ihnen das Beispiel genannt, wir haben einen befreundeten Schweizer Bankier, der den großen ausgeprägten Schweizer Akzent hat, aber phänomenal spricht, und er hat einen Assistenten, der aus England kommt und sich nicht so gut auf Englisch ausdrücken kann wie mein Schweizer Banker , und mein Schweizer Bankier lebt seit 20 Jahren in Kanada und er hat keine Komplexe in Bezug auf sein Englisch und sollte das auch nicht, weil er sehr gut spricht, also sage ich ja. Les mencioné el ejemplo de, tenemos un amigo banquero suizo que tiene un acento suizo muy pronunciado pero habla fenomenal y tiene un asistente que es de Inglaterra que no se expresa tan bien en inglés como mi banquero suizo, entonces , y mi banquero suizo vive en canada desde hace 20 años y no tiene complejos con su ingles y tampoco debe porque habla super bien asi que le digo que si. Je vous ai cité l'exemple de, nous avons un ami banquier suisse qui a le gros accent suisse prononcé mais il parle de manière phénoménale et il a un assistant qui vient d'Angleterre qui ne s'exprime pas aussi bien en anglais que mon banquier suisse, donc , et mon banquier suisse vit au Canada depuis 20 ans et il n'a aucun complexe sur son anglais et il ne devrait pas non plus parce qu'il parle extrêmement bien donc je dis oui. Size şu örnekten bahsetmiştim: İsviçreli bir bankacı arkadaşımız var, İsviçre aksanı çok belirgin ama olağanüstü konuşuyor ve İngiltere'den gelen bir asistanı var, o da kendini benim İsviçreli bankacım kadar iyi İngilizce ifade edemiyor, bu yüzden İsviçreli bankacım 20 yıldır Kanada'da yaşıyor ve İngilizcesiyle ilgili hiçbir kompleksi yok ve olmamalı da çünkü son derece iyi konuşuyor, bu yüzden evet diyorum. If you want to work to get your pronunciation closer to that of the native speaker, to whatever native speaker you are trying to imitate, fine but you may not make it 100% and don't worry about it.

You had a discussion the other day with some of our learners and there was some difference of opinion on that. Онзи ден проведохте дискусия с някои от нашите ученици и по този въпрос имаше различно мнение. Sie hatten neulich eine Diskussion mit einigen unserer Lernenden und es gab einige Meinungsverschiedenheiten darüber.

Jill: Yeah. I mean, most of them, they were all fairly advanced speakers whose pronunciation is quite good already and they, to them I was trying to sort of tell them the same thing, you know. Искам да кажа, че повечето от тях, всички те бяха доста напреднали, чието произношение вече е доста добро, и те, те се опитваха да им кажат същото, разбирате ли. Ich meine, die meisten von ihnen waren alle ziemlich fortgeschrittene Sprecher, deren Aussprache bereits ziemlich gut ist, und ihnen, ihnen wollte ich irgendwie dasselbe sagen, wissen Sie. Je veux dire, la plupart d'entre eux, ils étaient tous des locuteurs assez avancés dont la prononciation est déjà assez bonne et eux, j'essayais de leur dire en quelque sorte la même chose, vous savez. I understand you very well. It's really not that important if you don't' sound exactly like me or Steve or whoever but they were pretty, a couple of them at least were fairly adamant about wanting to sound as much like a native speaker as possible. Наистина не е толкова важно, ако не звучите точно като мен, Стив или който и да е друг, но те бяха доста, поне няколко от тях бяха доста категорични, че искат да звучат колкото се може повече като носители на езика. Es ist wirklich nicht so wichtig, wenn du nicht genau wie ich oder Steve oder wer auch immer klingst, aber sie waren hübsch, zumindest ein paar von ihnen wollten so sehr wie ein Muttersprachler klingen wie möglich. Realmente no es tan importante si no suenas exactamente como yo o Steve o quien sea, pero eran bonitos, al menos un par de ellos estaban bastante firmes en querer sonar lo más parecido posible a un hablante nativo. Ce n'est vraiment pas si important si vous ne parlez pas exactement comme moi ou Steve ou qui que ce soit, mais ils étaient beaux, quelques-uns au moins étaient assez catégoriques sur le fait de vouloir ressembler autant que possible à un locuteur natif.

And, I think these are people, they're keen Linguist members, they work very hard on Linguist and I think they sort of have a passion for English learning so maybe they're perfectionists to a certain degree and so for them it's maybe more important than the average person. Мисля, че това са хора, които са запалени членове на Linguist, работят много усилено в Linguist и мисля, че имат страст към изучаването на английски език, така че може би са перфекционисти до известна степен и затова за тях това е може би по-важно от обикновения човек.

Steve: Well and I think maybe we can end on the note that we want people to do what they want to do so people can pursue whatever interests them. Стив: Е, и мисля, че може би можем да завършим с това, че искаме хората да правят това, което искат, за да могат да се занимават с това, което ги интересува. Steve: Nun, und ich denke, wir können vielleicht mit der Anmerkung enden, dass wir wollen, dass die Leute tun, was sie tun wollen, damit die Leute ihren Interessen nachgehen können. Steve : Eh bien, et je pense que nous pouvons peut-être conclure sur le fait que nous voulons que les gens fassent ce qu'ils veulent pour que les gens puissent poursuivre ce qui les intéresse. Steve: Nou, en ik denk dat we misschien kunnen eindigen met de opmerking dat we willen dat mensen doen wat ze willen doen, zodat mensen kunnen nastreven wat hen interesseert. It's just that we don't want people to feel pressure or to feel unhappy. Es solo que no queremos que la gente se sienta presionada o infeliz.

I've heard people say I don't like listening to myself speak English because I don't like my accent. Чувал съм хора да казват, че не обичам да слушам себе си да говоря на английски, защото не харесвам акцента си. What they are really saying is they feel that other people don't like their accent so they feel badly about their accent and that we don't want. Това, което всъщност казват, е, че смятат, че другите хора не харесват техния акцент, затова се чувстват зле с него, а ние не искаме това. Ce qu'ils disent vraiment, c'est qu'ils ont l'impression que les autres n'aiment pas leur accent, donc ils se sentent mal à propos de leur accent et que nous ne voulons pas. But, if a person wants to pursue the ultimate in getting to sound like a native speaker, well there's nothing wrong with that either. Но ако човек иска да се стреми да звучи като носител на езика, в това също няма нищо лошо. Aber wenn eine Person das Ultimative anstreben möchte, um wie ein Muttersprachler zu klingen, dann ist auch daran nichts auszusetzen. Ancak, bir kişi anadili gibi konuşmak için en üst seviyeye ulaşmak istiyorsa, bunda da yanlış bir şey yoktur.

Okay Jill, thank you very much.

Jill: Thank you.