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The Michael Shermer Show, 299. Why the Modern Male Is Struggling (1)

299. Why the Modern Male Is Struggling (1)

299. Richard Reeves — Of Boys and Men: Why the Modern Male Is Struggling, Why It Matters, and What to Do About It

1 (9s):

You're listening to the Michael Scher Show.

Wondrium (15s):

Hello everyone, It's Michael Schermer and it's time for another episode of the Michael Schermer Show, brought to you by Wdre. Wdre is a series of college level audio and video courses and documentaries produced and distributed by the teaching company. You know them, I always talk about them. I have two courses myself on Skepticism 1 0 1 and Conspiracies One brings you engaging educational content through short form videos, long form courses, tutorials, how-to lessons, travel logs, documentaries, and more covering every topic you've ever wondered about and many you've never thought you'd wondered about. How about this one? The Middle Ages? Here's one I'm taking right now. It's called the Medieval Legacy.

Wondrium (57s):

Take a fascinating and eye-opening journey into the Middle Ages while you uncover the remarkable ways in which the medieval world still influences our thinking, our collective consciousness, and our ways of life. Indeed, really, the Dark Ages, no one at the time thought they were living in the dark ages, right? I mean, be like somebody 500 years from now saying, Oh, those people in the 21st century, they were living in the dark ages. Of course, we don't have any idea what they're gonna think about us, but as you could tell, we don't think we're living in the dark ages. Okay, so here's a few of the lectures on this one. This is, by the way, 36, 30 minute lectures. Of course, the Black Death is featured prominently in there. The medieval invention of race, question mark.

Wondrium (1m 38s):

Interesting. Since race is such a huge issue for us, medievalism and modern racism, ah, that's probably what's actually going on here. Same thing with rediscovering medieval sex and gender with the people 500 years ago have asked the same kind of questions we ask today about race and gender. Hmm, interesting. We'll see Medieval invention of purgatory, right? This place between your life now and then when you pass, you go where heaven or hell may be purgatory. Well, that's not in the Bible. Exactly. So how did that get embedded right there in the Middle Ages? So check it out. If you go to wdm.com/shermer, you get a free trial for two weeks and 20% off the annual subscription rate.

Wondrium (2m 22s):

The subscription, by the way, gets you access to all their content online, which is great. You just stream it. And while you're multitasking doing things, you can educate yourself through this great resource fond of saying that the podcast here is ad free. In a sense. You have the entire episode without any ads in it. And so your contribution to this podcast would be to go to wdr.com/shermer and sign up. That's why they support the podcast, because people do that W O N D R I u m.com/shermer. Check it out.

1 (2m 59s):

I wanted to invite you to participate on a journey of a lifetime. This is a 20 day expedition to Antarctica, South Georgia and the Falklands in January of 2023 aboard Swan Lennox, new state-of-the-art 152 guest expedition cruise ship, Minerva renowned for their awesome beauty and remarkable wildlife. The images that greet you in these remote and unspoiled places are simply overwhelming icebergs as blue as a clear summer sky, jagged mountains laced with a snowy white mantle and thousands upon thousands of penguins stretching as far as the eye can see.

1 (3m 40s):

Wow. Sailing from Argentina's UIA located, I'm probably not pronouncing that right, but it's located the southernmost tip of South America. They will retrace the sea lanes navigated by storied explorers, including Ahmanson, Scott and Shackleton. The expedition will take place during the OTR summer when the days are long and relatively mild and the wildlife is at its peak. We will first explore the Antarctic Peninsula, a narrow finger of land that separates the ice ced waters of the Weddle and bells hoon seas and surrounding islands as the Minerva sails through scenic waterways, witness a breathtaking panorama of icebergs, blue glaciers and jagged snowcap mountains, and explore penguin Ries, see other wildlife and look for mink, humpback, and orca whales that frequent the icy food rich waters of Antarctica.

1 (4m 37s):

After stopping an elephant island where the men of certains Shackleton's Ill faded expedition aboard the ship endurance were stranded in 1916, they'll reach South Georgia, the spectacular remote island in the South Atlantic with its glacier cloud, mountains, craggy peaks and vast numbers of king penguins, other penguin species, as well as large colonies of albatross and elephant seals. Before ending the voyage of discovery, they will spend two days in the Falin Islands. Remember, there was a war there back with England a few decades ago. It's an archipelago that harbors an amazing concentration of wildlife that Bos over 200 bird species, including several that are endemic to the islands, constructed in Finland and launched in December, 2021.

1 (5m 26s):

This ship, the Minerva, is just perfect. It's beautiful, it's new, it's elegant, and it's, you're gonna love it. Anyway, we have three world class scientists and lectures presenting on the ship during the cruises, Dr. Duma, Dr. Sue Moore, and Dr. Gu I Garth, who will provide depth and meaning to the exploration with daily lectures. All I hope you'll join us on this once in a lifetime travel adventure. If you do, it does go to support the Skeptic Society, which is a 5 0 1 C three nonprofit. So a portion of your fee will be deductible as tax deductible since we're a nonprofit.

1 (6m 10s):

All right, thanks for listening. I hope you go check it out and I'll talk to you again soon. My guest today is Richard Reeves. He is a senior fellow in economic studies at the Brookings Institution where he directs the Boys and Men Project and holds the John c and Nancy D. Whitehead chair. He is the author of Dream Hoarders, How the American Upper Middle Class is Leaving Everyone Else In The Dust, Why that is a problem and what to do about it. That was published in 2017 and he is a regular contributor, as I'm sure you've read many times in the New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal and the Atlantic.

1 (6m 57s):

His new book is of Boys and Men, Why the Modern Male is Struggling, Why it Matters, and what to do about it. So that's, by the way, Richard, that's a perfect title and subtitle. I always contend that either the title of the subtitle tell the reader what the book is about. A lot of authors try to have some clever title or subtitle and you can't figure out what it means here. It's right there on the front of Boys and Men. So let me just start right there. I think now I'm just gonna make up this response to your book. I don't know if any, if you've already ever heard this or if anyone would actually say this, but you know, what comes to mind is something along the lines of, Oh, Boohoo Boys. Now you know what it's like for girls and women for the past, oh, I don't know, 10,000 years bottom rung on top now fellas buck up and take it for a while.

1 (7m 45s):

It's our turn now. The Future is female. Okay. I dunno if anybody would actually say that, but I can imagine. You know, it's like you guys finally fall behind and now you're a bunch of wines come on,

2 (7m 58s):

Right? Yeah. Well, even if people don't say it, they may well be thinking it. And so there is this, the Tiny Violins problem, Right, And and I think it's, I think it's, I think, look, I think it's perfectly understandable reaction and I think especially given how quickly the women's movement has succeeded on so many fronts, I mean, this is, this is just unbelievably quick in terms of social change. And so I think updating our priors to say, Oh, actually enough progress has been made now for girls and women, that it's, that it's not crazy to look at the ways in which boys and men might be behind.

2 (8m 39s):

I mean, that's happened in like a lifetime, which is nothing in cultural years, and as you say, it's been millennial, but it's been the other way around. But I, I do think that most people deep down don't think that two wrongs make a right. And I don't think that many feminists really see the, the goal is to have 10,000 years where boys and men are doing badly. Then we call it evens. And then maybe we move to this future of equality, but we have to wait another 10,000 years for that. I don't think many really think that. But I, I do understand the instinct though. I mean, and I do think there is a lot more to do for women and girls, and you've discussed it quite a bit on, on on this podcast.

2 (9m 18s):

There are remaining challenges, but, but that's, that's my reaction to that reaction,

1 (9m 24s):

Right? So the women's movement has gone through, I guess, three stages, right? There was kind of the right to vote and then the 1970s, the right to property and equal pay and have mortgages and banking independence and so forth. And then what, I guess we're in the third wave now, or you know, the latest wave of feminism, which, you know, I probably kind of aged out of following it carefully in the moral archive track, really probably that second wave, first and second waves the most. So this one, it seems like it's pushing ever forward. So you get these, you know, more and more opportunities and women taking those opportunities.

1 (10m 8s):

So what, let's just, what's the problem to be solved in the book here? What, how are boys and men falling behind and, and you know, and why does it matter?

2 (10m 19s):

Sure. So the, the evidence that I al in the book, and I have to say it's been quite a long time in the coming, is focused around three different axes. One is education, the second is employment, and the third is the family. And I think they probably get increasingly controversial as we go through them. So if we start with the evidence just on education gaps, there's no real debate about the fact that there are now large gender gaps in almost every advanced economy in terms of education and that they've reversed in recent decades. So, you know, one fact that illustrates that is that in 1972, which is an important year in the US cuz that's when Title nine was passed to promote gender equality in higher education, there was a 13 percentage point gap in the percentage of men getting college degrees over women.

2 (11m 14s):

Now there's a 15 percentage point gap, but the other way around. So girls overtook men and then kept going. And so there's a big agenda gap in higher education today than there was when Title nine was passed. Just the other way around. And there are many other examples in high school and elsewhere, but, and it's interesting and it is, it's an international pattern. So this is not a peculiarly US phenomenon and so large and in some cases growing gaps in education and everything I'm gonna say is especially true for working class boys and men and black boys and men. Secondly, in the labor market, what we've seen is this really impressive economic advance by women, not evenly for sure, college educated women.

2 (11m 54s):

Women at the top have done particularly well, much slower rates of progress for again, for less educated women, but still across the board increased economic progress. Whereas most men today in the US earn less than most men did in 1979. So if, if American men were country and we just measured it in terms of individual learnings, it's poorer today than 40 years ago. And that's a remarkable economic fact. And I think one that really does have to be taken into account. And what that means is that the traditional economic relationship between men and women has, has really been fundamentally altered. So we're now in a world where you, I can say this on this show and people will understand what I'm saying.

299. Why the Modern Male Is Struggling (1) 299\. لماذا يكافح الرجل الحديث (1) 299. Warum der moderne Mann Probleme hat (1) 299. Γιατί ο σύγχρονος άνδρας δυσκολεύεται (1) 299. Why the Modern Male Is Struggling (1) 299. Por qué lucha el varón moderno (1) 299. Pourquoi l'homme moderne est en difficulté (1) 299. Perché il maschio moderno è in difficoltà (1) 299.現代男性はなぜ苦労しているのか (1) 299. 현대 남성이 고군분투하는 이유 (1) 299. Waarom de moderne man het moeilijk heeft (1) 299. Porque é que o homem moderno está em dificuldades (1) 299. Почему современный мужчина испытывает трудности (1) 299. Zakaj ima sodobni moški težave (1) 299. Modern Erkek Neden Mücadele Ediyor (1) 299. 为什么现代男性正在挣扎(1) 299\. 現代男性為何苦苦掙扎 (1)

299. 299. Richard Reeves — Of Boys and Men: Why the Modern Male Is Struggling, Why It Matters, and What to Do About It ريتشارد ريفز - عن الأولاد والرجال: لماذا يكافح الرجل الحديث ، ولماذا هو مهم ، وماذا تفعل حيال ذلك Richard Reeves — Of Boys and Men: Why the Modern Male Is Struggling, Why It Matters, and What to Do About It Richard Reeves — Dei ragazzi e degli uomini: perché il maschio moderno sta lottando, perché è importante e cosa fare al riguardo Richard Reeves - Of Boys and Men: Porque é que o Homem Moderno está em dificuldades, porque é que isso é importante e o que fazer em relação a isso

1 (9s): 1 (9s):

You're listening to the Michael Scher Show. أنت تستمع إلى برنامج مايكل شير. Está a ouvir o programa do Michael Scher.

Wondrium (15s): Wondrium (15s):

Hello everyone, It's Michael Schermer and it's time for another episode of the Michael Schermer Show, brought to you by Wdre. Olá a todos, sou Michael Schermer e está na altura de mais um episódio do Michael Schermer Show, trazido até vós pela Wdre. Wdre is a series of college level audio and video courses and documentaries produced and distributed by the teaching company. Wdre é uma série de cursos áudio e vídeo e documentários de nível universitário produzidos e distribuídos pela empresa de ensino. You know them, I always talk about them. Conhecem-nos, estou sempre a falar deles. Onları tanıyorsun, hep onlardan bahsederim. I have two courses myself on Skepticism 1 0 1 and Conspiracies One brings you engaging educational content through short form videos, long form courses, tutorials, how-to lessons, travel logs, documentaries, and more covering every topic you've ever wondered about and many you've never thought you'd wondered about. I have two courses myself on Skepticism 1 0 1 and Conspiracies One brings you engaging educational content through short form videos, long form courses, tutorials, how-to lessons, travel logs, documentaries, and more covering every topic you've ever wondered about and many you've never thought you'd wondered about. Eu próprio tenho dois cursos sobre Ceticismo 1 0 1 e Conspirações A One oferece-lhe conteúdos educativos interessantes através de vídeos curtos, cursos longos, tutoriais, lições práticas, registos de viagens, documentários e muito mais, abrangendo todos os tópicos sobre os quais alguma vez se interrogou e muitos sobre os quais nunca pensou interrogar-se. Benim de Şüphecilik 1 0 1 ve Komplolar üzerine iki kursum var. One size kısa videolar, uzun kurslar, öğreticiler, nasıl yapılır dersleri, seyahat günlükleri, belgeseller ve merak ettiğiniz ve merak ettiğinizi hiç düşünmediğiniz her konuyu kapsayan daha fazlası aracılığıyla ilgi çekici eğitim içeriği sunuyor. How about this one? Que tal este? The Middle Ages? A Idade Média? Here's one I'm taking right now. Aqui está um que estou a tomar neste momento. It's called the Medieval Legacy. Chama-se o Legado Medieval.

Wondrium (57s): Wondrium (57s): Wondrium (57 s):

Take a fascinating and eye-opening journey into the Middle Ages while you uncover the remarkable ways in which the medieval world still influences our thinking, our collective consciousness, and our ways of life. Faça uma viagem fascinante e reveladora à Idade Média enquanto descobre as formas notáveis como o mundo medieval ainda influencia o nosso pensamento, a nossa consciência colectiva e os nossos modos de vida. Indeed, really, the Dark Ages, no one at the time thought they were living in the dark ages, right? De facto, na verdade, a Idade das Trevas, ninguém na altura pensava que estava a viver na Idade das Trevas, certo? I mean, be like somebody 500 years from now saying, Oh, those people in the 21st century, they were living in the dark ages. Quero dizer, seria como se alguém daqui a 500 anos dissesse: "Oh, essas pessoas no século XXI, estavam a viver na idade das trevas. Of course, we don't have any idea what they're gonna think about us, but as you could tell, we don't think we're living in the dark ages. É claro que não fazemos ideia do que vão pensar de nós, mas, como se pode ver, não achamos que estamos a viver na idade das trevas. Okay, so here's a few of the lectures on this one. Aqui estão algumas das palestras sobre este assunto. This is, by the way, 36, 30 minute lectures. A propósito, são 36 palestras de 30 minutos. Of course, the Black Death is featured prominently in there. É claro que a Peste Negra tem um lugar de destaque. The medieval invention of race, question mark. A invenção medieval da raça, ponto de interrogação.

Wondrium (1m 38s): Wondrium (1m 38s):

Interesting. Since race is such a huge issue for us, medievalism and modern racism, ah, that's probably what's actually going on here. Uma vez que a raça é uma questão tão importante para nós, o medievalismo e o racismo moderno, ah, provavelmente é isso que se está a passar aqui. Same thing with rediscovering medieval sex and gender with the people 500 years ago have asked the same kind of questions we ask today about race and gender. Das Gleiche gilt für die Wiederentdeckung von Sex und Geschlecht im Mittelalter, wobei die Menschen vor 500 Jahren die gleichen Fragen gestellt haben, die wir heute über Rasse und Geschlecht stellen. O mesmo se passa com a redescoberta do sexo e do género na Idade Média, em que as pessoas de há 500 anos faziam o mesmo tipo de perguntas que nós fazemos hoje sobre raça e género. Hmm, interesting. Hmm, interessante. We'll see Medieval invention of purgatory, right? Veremos a invenção medieval do purgatório, certo? This place between your life now and then when you pass, you go where heaven or hell may be purgatory. Este lugar entre a tua vida agora e depois, quando passas, vais para onde o céu ou o inferno podem ser o purgatório. Well, that's not in the Bible. Bem, isso não está na Bíblia. Exactly. So how did that get embedded right there in the Middle Ages? Então, como é que isso foi incorporado na Idade Média? So check it out. Por isso, veja. If you go to wdm.com/shermer, you get a free trial for two weeks and 20% off the annual subscription rate. Se aceder a wdm.com/shermer, obtém uma avaliação gratuita durante duas semanas e 20% de desconto na taxa de subscrição anual.

Wondrium (2m 22s): Wondrium (2m 22s):

The subscription, by the way, gets you access to all their content online, which is great. A assinatura, aliás, dá-lhe acesso a todo o conteúdo online, o que é ótimo. You just stream it. Basta transmitir. And while you're multitasking doing things, you can educate yourself through this great resource fond of saying that the podcast here is ad free. E enquanto estão a fazer coisas em multitasking, podem educar-se através deste grande recurso que gosta de dizer que o podcast aqui é livre de anúncios. In a sense. De certa forma. You have the entire episode without any ads in it. Tem o episódio completo sem quaisquer anúncios. And so your contribution to this podcast would be to go to wdr.com/shermer and sign up. Por isso, a vossa contribuição para este podcast seria ir a wdr.com/shermer e inscreverem-se. That's why they support the podcast, because people do that W O N D R I u m.com/shermer. É por isso que apoiam o podcast, porque as pessoas fazem isso W O N D R I u m.com/shermer. Check it out. Verificar.

1 (2m 59s):

I wanted to invite you to participate on a journey of a lifetime. Queria convidar-vos a participar numa viagem única na vida. This is a 20 day expedition to Antarctica, South Georgia and the Falklands in January of 2023 aboard Swan Lennox, new state-of-the-art 152 guest expedition cruise ship, Minerva renowned for their awesome beauty and remarkable wildlife. Trata-se de uma expedição de 20 dias à Antárctida, Geórgia do Sul e Malvinas, em janeiro de 2023, a bordo do Swan Lennox, o novo navio de cruzeiro de expedição de última geração para 152 hóspedes, Minerva, conhecido pela sua beleza espantosa e vida selvagem notável. The images that greet you in these remote and unspoiled places are simply overwhelming icebergs as blue as a clear summer sky, jagged mountains laced with a snowy white mantle and thousands upon thousands of penguins stretching as far as the eye can see. As imagens que nos recebem nestes lugares remotos e intocados são simplesmente icebergues esmagadores, tão azuis como um céu limpo de verão, montanhas recortadas com um manto branco de neve e milhares e milhares de pinguins que se estendem até onde a vista alcança.

1 (3m 40s):

Wow. Uau. Sailing from Argentina's UIA located, I'm probably not pronouncing that right, but it's located the southernmost tip of South America. Partindo da UIA da Argentina, localizada, provavelmente não estou a pronunciar corretamente, mas está localizada no extremo sul da América do Sul. They will retrace the sea lanes navigated by storied explorers, including Ahmanson, Scott and Shackleton. Os participantes percorrerão as rotas marítimas navegadas por exploradores famosos, incluindo Ahmanson, Scott e Shackleton. The expedition will take place during the OTR summer when the days are long and relatively mild and the wildlife is at its peak. A expedição terá lugar durante o verão OTR, quando os dias são longos e relativamente amenos e a vida selvagem está no seu auge. We will first explore the Antarctic Peninsula, a narrow finger of land that separates the ice ced waters of the Weddle and bells hoon seas and surrounding islands as the Minerva sails through scenic waterways, witness a breathtaking panorama of icebergs, blue glaciers and jagged snowcap mountains, and explore penguin Ries, see other wildlife and look for mink, humpback, and orca whales that frequent the icy food rich waters of Antarctica. Wir werden zuerst die Antarktische Halbinsel erkunden, einen schmalen Landstreifen, der die eisbedeckten Gewässer der Weddle- und Bell-Hoon-Meere und die umliegenden Inseln trennt, während die Minerva durch malerische Wasserstraßen segelt, und Zeuge eines atemberaubenden Panoramas von Eisbergen, blauen Gletschern und zerklüfteten Schneekappenbergen wird , und erkunden Sie den Pinguin Ries, sehen Sie andere Wildtiere und halten Sie Ausschau nach Nerz-, Buckel- und Orca-Walen, die häufig in den eisigen, nahrungsreichen Gewässern der Antarktis leben. Per prima cosa esploreremo la Penisola Antartica, uno stretto dito di terra che separa le acque ghiacciate dei mari Weddle e Bells Hoon e le isole circostanti mentre la Minerva naviga attraverso corsi d'acqua panoramici, assistiamo a un panorama mozzafiato di iceberg, ghiacciai blu e frastagliate montagne innevate ed esplora il pinguino Ries, osserva altri animali selvatici e cerca visoni, megattere e orche che frequentano le gelide acque ricche di cibo dell'Antartide. Começaremos por explorar a Península Antárctica, um estreito dedo de terra que separa as águas geladas dos mares de Weddle e Bells Hoon e as ilhas circundantes, enquanto o Minerva navega por canais panorâmicos, testemunha um panorama deslumbrante de icebergues, glaciares azuis e montanhas escarpadas cobertas de neve, explora as colónias de pinguins, vê outros animais selvagens e procura baleias vison, jubarte e orca que frequentam as águas geladas e ricas em alimentos da Antárctida.

1 (4m 37s):

After stopping an elephant island where the men of certains Shackleton's Ill faded expedition aboard the ship endurance were stranded in 1916, they'll reach South Georgia, the spectacular remote island in the South Atlantic with its glacier cloud, mountains, craggy peaks and vast numbers of king penguins, other penguin species, as well as large colonies of albatross and elephant seals. Nachdem sie eine Elefanteninsel angehalten haben, auf der die Männer von Shackletons Ill Faded-Expedition an Bord des Schiffes Endurance 1916 gestrandet waren, werden sie Südgeorgien erreichen, die spektakuläre abgelegene Insel im Südatlantik mit ihren Gletscherwolken, Bergen, schroffen Gipfeln und einer großen Anzahl von Königspinguinen, anderen Pinguinarten sowie großen Kolonien von Albatrossen und See-Elefanten. Depois de parar numa ilha de elefantes onde os homens da expedição Ill faded de Shackleton, a bordo do navio Endurance, ficaram encalhados em 1916, chegarão à Geórgia do Sul, a espetacular ilha remota do Atlântico Sul com as suas nuvens glaciares, montanhas, picos escarpados e um grande número de pinguins-rei, outras espécies de pinguins, bem como grandes colónias de albatrozes e elefantes-marinhos. Before ending the voyage of discovery, they will spend two days in the Falin Islands. Antes de terminarem a viagem de descoberta, passarão dois dias nas Ilhas Falin. Remember, there was a war there back with England a few decades ago. Lembrem-se que houve uma guerra com a Inglaterra há algumas décadas. It's an archipelago that harbors an amazing concentration of wildlife that Bos over 200 bird species, including several that are endemic to the islands, constructed in Finland and launched in December, 2021. É um arquipélago que alberga uma concentração espantosa de vida selvagem que Bos mais de 200 espécies de aves, incluindo várias que são endémicas das ilhas, construído na Finlândia e lançado em dezembro de 2021.

1 (5m 26s):

This ship, the Minerva, is just perfect. Este navio, o Minerva, é simplesmente perfeito. It's beautiful, it's new, it's elegant, and it's, you're gonna love it. É bonito, é novo, é elegante e vai adorá-lo. Anyway, we have three world class scientists and lectures presenting on the ship during the cruises, Dr. Duma, Dr. Sue Moore, and Dr. Gu I Garth, who will provide depth and meaning to the exploration with daily lectures. De qualquer modo, temos três cientistas e conferencistas de renome mundial a apresentarem-se no navio durante os cruzeiros, a Dra. Duma, a Dra. Sue Moore e o Dr. Gu I Garth, que darão profundidade e significado à exploração com palestras diárias. All I hope you'll join us on this once in a lifetime travel adventure. Espero que se junte a nós nesta aventura de viagem única na vida. If you do, it does go to support the Skeptic Society, which is a 5 0 1 C three nonprofit. Se o fizer, o dinheiro vai para apoiar a Skeptic Society, que é uma organização sem fins lucrativos. So a portion of your fee will be deductible as tax deductible since we're a nonprofit. Assim, uma parte da sua taxa será dedutível nos impostos, uma vez que somos uma organização sem fins lucrativos.

1 (6m 10s):

All right, thanks for listening. I hope you go check it out and I'll talk to you again soon. Espero que a visitem e voltarei a falar convosco em breve. My guest today is Richard Reeves. O meu convidado de hoje é Richard Reeves. He is a senior fellow in economic studies at the Brookings Institution where he directs the Boys and Men Project and holds the John c and Nancy D. Whitehead chair. É membro sénior em estudos económicos na Brookings Institution, onde dirige o Boys and Men Project e detém a cadeira de John C e Nancy D. Whitehead. He is the author of Dream Hoarders, How the American Upper Middle Class is Leaving Everyone Else In The Dust, Why that is a problem and what to do about it. É o autor de Dream Hoarders, How the American Upper Middle Class is Leaving Everyone Else In The Dust, porque é que isso é um problema e o que fazer para o resolver. That was published in 2017 and he is a regular contributor, as I'm sure you've read many times in the New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal and the Atlantic. Foi publicado em 2017 e é um colaborador regular, como decerto já leu muitas vezes no New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal e The Atlantic.

1 (6m 57s): 1 (6m 57s):

His new book is of Boys and Men, Why the Modern Male is Struggling, Why it Matters, and what to do about it. O seu novo livro é Boys and Men, Why the Modern Male is Struggling, Why it Matters, and what to do about it. So that's, by the way, Richard, that's a perfect title and subtitle. Por isso, já agora, Richard, esse é um título e subtítulo perfeitos. I always contend that either the title of the subtitle tell the reader what the book is about. Defendo sempre que tanto o título como o subtítulo dizem ao leitor do que trata o livro. A lot of authors try to have some clever title or subtitle and you can't figure out what it means here. Muitos autores tentam ter um título ou subtítulo inteligente e não se consegue perceber o que significa. It's right there on the front of Boys and Men. Está mesmo na capa do Boys and Men. So let me just start right there. Por isso, deixem-me começar por aqui. I think now I'm just gonna make up this response to your book. Acho que agora vou inventar esta resposta ao teu livro. I don't know if any, if you've already ever heard this or if anyone would actually say this, but you know, what comes to mind is something along the lines of, Oh, Boohoo Boys. Não sei se já ouviram isto ou se alguém diria mesmo isto, mas o que me vem à cabeça é algo do género: "Oh, Boohoo Boys". Now you know what it's like for girls and women for the past, oh, I don't know, 10,000 years bottom rung on top now fellas buck up and take it for a while. Ora sai com'è stato per le ragazze e le donne del passato, oh, non lo so, 10.000 anni dall'ultimo gradino in cima ora i ragazzi si tirano su e se la prendono per un po'. Agora já sabem como é para as raparigas e mulheres nos últimos, oh, não sei, 10.000 anos, o degrau mais baixo no topo. 现在你知道过去的女孩和女人是什么样子了,哦,我不知道,一万年来底层在顶层,现在伙计们振作起来,接受一段时间。

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It's our turn now. Agora é a nossa vez. The Future is female. O futuro é feminino. Okay. I dunno if anybody would actually say that, but I can imagine. Não sei se alguém diria mesmo isso, mas posso imaginar. You know, it's like you guys finally fall behind and now you're a bunch of wines come on, É como se vocês finalmente tivessem ficado para trás e agora fossem um bando de vinhos, vá lá, 你知道,这就像你们终于落后了,现在你们是一堆酒来吧,

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Right? Yeah. Well, even if people don't say it, they may well be thinking it. Bem, mesmo que as pessoas não o digam, podem muito bem estar a pensar nisso. And so there is this, the Tiny Violins problem, Right, And and I think it's, I think it's, I think, look, I think it's perfectly understandable reaction and I think especially given how quickly the women's movement has succeeded on so many fronts, I mean, this is, this is just unbelievably quick in terms of social change. E, portanto, há este problema dos Violinos Pequenos, certo, e acho que é, acho que é, acho que é, olha, acho que é uma reação perfeitamente compreensível e acho que, especialmente tendo em conta a rapidez com que o movimento das mulheres teve sucesso em tantas frentes, quero dizer, isto é, isto é incrivelmente rápido em termos de mudança social. And so I think updating our priors to say, Oh, actually enough progress has been made now for girls and women, that it's, that it's not crazy to look at the ways in which boys and men might be behind. E, por isso, penso que atualizar os nossos antecedentes para dizer: "Oh, na verdade, já se fizeram progressos suficientes para as raparigas e as mulheres, pelo que não é loucura olhar para as formas como os rapazes e os homens podem estar atrasados".

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I mean, that's happened in like a lifetime, which is nothing in cultural years, and as you say, it's been millennial, but it's been the other way around. Quer dizer, isso aconteceu numa vida inteira, o que não é nada em anos culturais, e como diz, tem sido milenar, mas tem sido o contrário. 我的意思是,这发生在一生中,这在文化年代里算不了什么,正如你所说,它已经是千禧年了,但事实恰恰相反。 But I, I do think that most people deep down don't think that two wrongs make a right. Mas eu, eu acho que a maioria das pessoas, no fundo, não pensa que dois erros fazem um certo. 但我确实认为,大多数人内心深处并不认为两个错误就能构成一个正确。 And I don't think that many feminists really see the, the goal is to have 10,000 years where boys and men are doing badly. E penso que muitas feministas não vêem realmente o objetivo de ter 10.000 anos em que os rapazes e os homens se portam mal. Then we call it evens. Então chamamos-lhe "pares". And then maybe we move to this future of equality, but we have to wait another 10,000 years for that. E depois talvez passemos a um futuro de igualdade, mas temos de esperar mais 10 000 anos por isso. I don't think many really think that. Não creio que muitos pensem realmente assim. But I, I do understand the instinct though. Mas eu compreendo o instinto. I mean, and I do think there is a lot more to do for women and girls, and you've discussed it quite a bit on, on on this podcast. Quero dizer, e penso que há muito mais a fazer pelas mulheres e raparigas, e já falaram bastante sobre isso neste podcast.

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There are remaining challenges, but, but that's, that's my reaction to that reaction, Ainda há desafios, mas, mas essa é a minha reação a essa reação,

1 (9m 24s):

Right? So the women's movement has gone through, I guess, three stages, right? O movimento das mulheres passou por três fases, certo? There was kind of the right to vote and then the 1970s, the right to property and equal pay and have mortgages and banking independence and so forth. Houve uma espécie de direito de voto e depois, na década de 1970, o direito à propriedade e à igualdade de remuneração, à hipoteca e à independência bancária, etc. And then what, I guess we're in the third wave now, or you know, the latest wave of feminism, which, you know, I probably kind of aged out of following it carefully in the moral archive track, really probably that second wave, first and second waves the most. E depois, acho que estamos agora na terceira vaga, ou seja, na última vaga do feminismo, que, provavelmente, deixei de seguir atentamente na linha do arquivo moral, provavelmente na segunda vaga, na primeira e na segunda vagas. So this one, it seems like it's pushing ever forward. Este parece estar a avançar cada vez mais. So you get these, you know, more and more opportunities and women taking those opportunities. Por isso, há cada vez mais oportunidades e as mulheres aproveitam-nas.

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So what, let's just, what's the problem to be solved in the book here? Então, qual é o problema a resolver no livro? What, how are boys and men falling behind and, and you know, and why does it matter? Como é que os rapazes e os homens estão a ficar para trás e porque é que isso é importante?

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Sure. Claro. So the, the evidence that I al in the book, and I have to say it's been quite a long time in the coming, is focused around three different axes. Por isso, as provas que apresento no livro, e devo dizer que já há muito tempo que não as apresento, centram-se em três eixos diferentes. 因此,我在书中提供的证据,我不得不说,这已经是相当长的一段时间了,主要集中在三个不同的轴上。 One is education, the second is employment, and the third is the family. Uma é a educação, a segunda é o emprego e a terceira é a família. And I think they probably get increasingly controversial as we go through them. E penso que, à medida que as vamos analisando, vão sendo cada vez mais controversas. So if we start with the evidence just on education gaps, there's no real debate about the fact that there are now large gender gaps in almost every advanced economy in terms of education and that they've reversed in recent decades. Assim, se começarmos apenas com os dados relativos às disparidades na educação, não há qualquer debate sobre o facto de existirem atualmente grandes disparidades entre homens e mulheres em quase todas as economias avançadas em termos de educação e de estas se terem invertido nas últimas décadas. So, you know, one fact that illustrates that is that in 1972, which is an important year in the US cuz that's when Title nine was passed to promote gender equality in higher education, there was a 13 percentage point gap in the percentage of men getting college degrees over women. Um facto que ilustra esta situação é que em 1972, um ano importante nos EUA porque foi quando o Título 9 foi aprovado para promover a igualdade entre homens e mulheres no ensino superior, havia uma diferença de 13 pontos percentuais na percentagem de homens que obtinham diplomas universitários em relação às mulheres.

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Now there's a 15 percentage point gap, but the other way around. Agora há uma diferença de 15 pontos percentuais, mas ao contrário. So girls overtook men and then kept going. Assim, as raparigas ultrapassaram os homens e continuaram a avançar. And so there's a big agenda gap in higher education today than there was when Title nine was passed. Por isso, existe atualmente uma grande lacuna na agenda do ensino superior do que existia quando o Título IX foi aprovado. Just the other way around. É exatamente o contrário. And there are many other examples in high school and elsewhere, but, and it's interesting and it is, it's an international pattern. E há muitos outros exemplos no ensino secundário e noutros locais, mas, e é interessante e é, é um padrão internacional. So this is not a peculiarly US phenomenon and so large and in some cases growing gaps in education and everything I'm gonna say is especially true for working class boys and men and black boys and men. Não se trata, portanto, de um fenómeno específico dos Estados Unidos, e as grandes e, em alguns casos, crescentes lacunas na educação e tudo o que vou dizer são especialmente verdadeiras para os rapazes e homens da classe trabalhadora e para os rapazes e homens negros. Secondly, in the labor market, what we've seen is this really impressive economic advance by women, not evenly for sure, college educated women. Em segundo lugar, no mercado de trabalho, o que temos visto é um avanço económico realmente impressionante por parte das mulheres, não uniformemente, é certo, mas por parte das mulheres com formação universitária.

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Women at the top have done particularly well, much slower rates of progress for again, for less educated women, but still across the board increased economic progress. As mulheres no topo da pirâmide têm tido um desempenho particularmente bom, com taxas de progresso muito mais lentas para as mulheres com menos habilitações, mas ainda assim um progresso económico generalizado. Whereas most men today in the US earn less than most men did in 1979. Enquanto a maioria dos homens nos EUA ganha atualmente menos do que a maioria dos homens ganhava em 1979. So if, if American men were country and we just measured it in terms of individual learnings, it's poorer today than 40 years ago. Por isso, se os homens americanos fossem um país e o medíssemos apenas em termos de aprendizagens individuais, é mais pobre hoje do que há 40 anos. And that's a remarkable economic fact. E isso é um facto económico notável. And I think one that really does have to be taken into account. E penso que há uma coisa que tem de ser tida em conta. And what that means is that the traditional economic relationship between men and women has, has really been fundamentally altered. E o que isso significa é que a relação económica tradicional entre homens e mulheres foi, de facto, fundamentalmente alterada. So we're now in a world where you, I can say this on this show and people will understand what I'm saying. Portanto, estamos agora num mundo em que eu posso dizer isto neste programa e as pessoas vão perceber o que estou a dizer.