So I probably did a separate intro, but why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about your language experience and just give a brief introduction for people that don't know you.
Hi guys, my name is Kevin, and if you ever used the application LingQ, I am one of the very active members on there. What I'm known for in the community is my 10,000 hours of learning Mandarin, well, specifically listening to 10,000 hours. The thing about Mandarin is that it's very challenging and you do need a lot of hours. I put in the hard work, and I believe that this discussion will be very beneficial between me and Mike. I'm just very happy to be here to discuss my experience and hopefully provide some insight for everyone here.
Yeah, dude, all right, I've already told you this before, but I was so blown away by the stats. See, when I first found Kevin on LingQ—so you guys know that I'm a LingQ user, in case you don't know, it's basically a platform to learn languages on, but it's more centered around listening and reading, you know, essentially. And so anyway, there's a forum on there. I saw his post hitting 10,000 listening hours with Mandarin Chinese. Then he was going to do a live stream, so I was like, okay, this is really interesting because almost nobody talks about LingQ on YouTube, at least not to this extent. I was already really blown away by that.
I watched your three-hour live stream, or your live stream, and yeah, I watched a lot of it. I just kind of had it on and left a few comments. We kind of reached out to each other, and I was like, okay, I have to do an interview with you because you're basically language senpai over here. I really want to learn from you and maybe get your tips because from the interview that I watched, you use LingQ in kind of an unorthodox way, as you put it. I really want to dive deep into that, and hopefully the viewers can also learn from this.
I kind of went on a little tangent. I was already impressed by your Mandarin level on LingQ. A hundred thousand words is absolutely insane because I've been doing this for like, what, six years now or something like that, and I'm barely at 25,000. Then I clicked your profile.
I didn't even know you did other languages. I clicked your profile and was just blown away. Your Japanese is at 57,000. That's a lot of words, definitely.
So you can see why I wanted to interview Kevin. It's actually really cool that he has his own YouTube channel, which I will link down in the description for you guys to check out because it's really interesting.
Anyway, sorry. That was kind of the reason why I wanted to do this interview. So go back to your introduction. When did you first get interested in learning languages in general?
Back then, it all started when I was in high school and I did three years of Spanish. In my senior year, I had a Spanish teacher, and I was doing very badly. I was a very poor student, one of those B's and C students. I was not that type of smart Asian.
As the time neared the end of the year, I was failing Spanish with a D plus. If I failed, I had to repeat the year for that language because I didn't have enough credits to graduate. I had to talk to my teacher and ask for a little mercy. She was very lenient at first, but she told me, since I seemed to have a lot of passion, she would give me a C minus so I could graduate.
From there on, I had this burning feeling in me that I had to fulfill that. I tended to learn Mandarin as my starter of all languages. I'm a bit of a nice guy, so doing Mandarin as my first language is completely different because I don't speak Vietnamese. Back in 2018, I was introduced to Mandarin by one of my friends in college.
He tried to teach me how to say the word "I" in Mandarin but completely butchered it. After that, he just gave up on me. But from there on, I had this passion that I needed to figure out how to learn a language.
When I looked online, I found Steve Kaufman and watched one video, then another, and another. It became my ritual every day. I watched him every single day from 2018 until 2021. From there, I kept figuring out how to do this.
He introduced LingQ, and I started LingQ in 2018. Mandarin back then was not the best because they didn't provide much information about the content. Everything was about poetry and history, and YouTube did not have such a thing as CCs for Mandarin. It was very challenging.
Really? That's crazy. I didn't know that.
Yeah, because back then for LingQ, you had to manually find your input. There was no import feature until 2021, I believe. You had to do everything yourself: find your audio, find your text separately, then import them manually. It was a lot of work in my opinion.
From that, I gave up about 10 to 20 times. I gave up for months and then came back because I had this passion that I needed to learn this language no matter what it takes. That was from 2018 to 2021.
When 2021 started, I told myself I needed to lock in and start figuring out how to learn this language. The first thing I had to figure out was motivation and where to get content. From there, I started using LingQ to its max potential. That was my introduction to Mandarin in this case.
I think it worked. That's what I'm hoping to get your tips on. Please help me. You started learning Mandarin because of your friend.
But what got you super interested after that? Was it just your drive to tackle such a hard task of learning one of the hardest languages ever? I believe it is, right? It's one of the top ones.
Is it Cantonese?
Is it Cantonese? So yeah, I'm ignorant and don't really understand the difference between Cantonese and Mandarin. To me, both are Chinese, but I know they're different. I know it's really different, but I don't know how.
Yeah. So why did you decide to tackle Mandarin or keep going? Were you interested in the content or did you just enjoy the language or something like that?
Back then, I had two reasons. The first one is that I'm very passionate about tackling very hard things, like solving Rubik's cubes and juggling—pretty much all the stuff that not many people can do. I thought if someone can learn Mandarin from a monolingual background, it would be very impressive.
We've seen a lot of those Shalmas on YouTube for sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I definitely watched them. They're everywhere nowadays.
Well, that's really impressive. To start on such a hard language, and especially, I feel like it also gives you a big head start when it comes to Japanese and definitely overlaps with other Asian languages for sure.
At that time, when you decided to start studying Mandarin, when did you decide to learn more languages? Was Steve your inspiration for doing that?
Yeah, Steve was definitely a big part of it because he pretty much told everyone that you can learn all these languages no matter what age you are. It all depends on the technology, the materials you have, your passion, your motivation. He has three stages or three important parts to learn a language, but he mentioned motivation is a big one.
I realized that the more languages you learn, the more keys you can unlock the world in different ways. It's very awesome that you can unlock those cultures. Culture is pretty much the big thing when you hit a certain part of the language, and it just makes you want to keep going further and further.
Yes. I mean, I'm only doing Japanese. I'm not doing any other languages, but I still feel like that. Someone made a YouTube video a long time ago and made the analogy that when you play a video game, everything is like a map, and everything's fogged out.
The more you move, the more the map opens up. That's what it feels like to learn a language. But in your case, I feel like you really probably experienced that.
Most definitely. A lot of people like to learn one language and stay there. Then there are very few who want to learn multiple because it's so satisfying. Usually, once you get one, you tend to either continue further with that language or get addicted and continue to other languages just to satisfy your thirst.
So at what point did you decide to go to different languages?
That'll be fun.
Yeah, that's one goal.
Yeah, you should film it. If you ever do, film it. That would be entertaining. I'll watch.
I should have done it. I was supposed to do that in Taiwan, but I was too busy eating food, getting fat.
Yeah, well, that's what I would do too.
Isn't that like the ultimate goal? You really just want to go eat the food, right?
Yeah, the people, the food. It's the people. In Taiwan, I went and spoke Mandarin. They had no problem.
They were just happy that I was a foreigner because they noticed my accent, which is very obvious but understandable. They gave me some wisdom about life, and I just asked them. We kept having a conversation, and it was great. I want to do it again.
It's weird, though. Eating and talking just go hand in hand, so that's kind of perfect.
I mean, I've had an experience just like last time I was in Japan, where this old guy just started talking to me. He was clearly a local, and we were at a ramen restaurant. He started mumbling because he's old, but he talked to me about politics. I don't know how to speak on politics, and I'm not a political person.
But it just went straight into that, and then he asked me where I was from. That experience, with my limited speaking, was really rewarding. It was a rewarding feeling just to speak, even if I wasn't the greatest. I feel like that is the essence of language learning and why people do it.
Everyone should learn a different language, even just one, at least. They should because it's so fun.
I was going to say, there's a very good quote that even Steve quotes. It's something along the lines of, as long as you learn any language to any level, it's very satisfying and rewarding.
Yeah, no, exactly.
So you're learning like 10 plus languages, right?
Trying to, yes. Trying to.
That's just impressive. If you told me you were learning three languages, that would already blow me away. What is your goal when it comes to language learning with the different languages? Are you not trying to be perfect at any one language?
Because it seems like Mandarin is definitely your highest study, right?
Yes. I would say to that question that I'm not shooting for perfection because you have your entire life to learn the language, and you'll eventually reach it anyway. You might as well just let it happen naturally as long as you spend time every day and shift your time to something else that might be beneficial for you in the future. You might as well add that in as well.
Some people want to speedrun the language and get it done in two, three, or four years, but I'm more like, as long as I get to the point where I can understand what they're saying and they don't look at me in a weird way, I'm happy.
So you're okay if you have an accent and don't really care about that, as long as you can talk to people?
It's super obvious.
Yes, as long as they don't give me a weird look or anything. When I first started, they did, but now I sound like I'm from some part of China. They just don't know where.
I've spoken to Matt versus Japan a little bit about this. At some point, there's kind of diminishing returns. He's talked about how there's diminishing returns about trying to be super perfect at a language. I think for me, my goal with Japanese is that I know I'm probably going to have an accent. I'm not going to be perfect, but I just want to be able to speak to people without fumbling around, and I want to be able to understand and consume all the media—anime, manga, games, and all of that. That's my goal.
You would say that's probably the same for you.
Oh, you'll definitely get there, no problem. As long as you spend time every day, you'll eventually get there.
That's what I realized too in my small little box, in my small little world of Japanese. It feels like it's a time game. You can't get around the time aspect. If you don't put in the time, you won't achieve the same results. You could do a more effective method, but overall, time is the most important factor. Do you agree?
I definitely agree. With time, as long as you're spending time, you're technically moving on the path you're going. If you're not spending time, nothing moves. You're stuck in one place.
But the method does matter because efficiency is the biggest thing. People claim, "Oh, I learned a language in one year, two years," but I guarantee maybe their listening comprehension isn't the best. They can say a lot of words well because they trained it. One day, if you talk to someone, they might say a word or sentence you don't know, and the conversation ends there.
It gets really awkward.
That's been my experience. People come up to me with the simplest questions, but I never heard them in real life yet. I hear it the first time, and the second time, I get it. I had a funny story: a tall Asian guy came up to me, asked me something, and I gave him a random phrase.
He said okay and walked away. Then I realized he was asking me how tall I am. I thought about it afterward, and I was like, oh, that's really awkward.
That sucks.
Yeah, it takes me a while to realize what he was asking. That's the worst feeling ever. In hindsight, you understand, and you're like, oh, now it makes sense, but you can't go back. Now this person thinks you're stupid. But you'll never see them again, which is a good thing.
That's the thing too. Something I struggle with is feeling nervous. I've gone out of my way to try to speak to people more recently, but in the beginning, I was frozen with fear. In reality, you're never going to see them again, so you might as well.
If you're going to make a fool of yourself, it doesn't matter. Steve and everyone say the key is to put yourself out there and try. You're not going to be perfect, but just improve. Usually, it gives you more motivation to continue.
It either motivates you or it might end you. It depends on which path you take.
When I have conversations with anyone, I always leave feeling rewarded. I don't feel stupid. I feel like I could have been better, but it really makes you feel good. That's why I think everyone should experience that feeling because there's almost nothing else like it.
Well, you understand the other person, then it hits pretty hard. The dopamine kicks in really quick after that.
Yeah, I know what it feels like. I've traveled to Japan a lot, and I know what it's like to go there and know absolutely nothing. It's a bad feeling because you can't understand anyone, can't make meaningful connections, can't do anything. You're basically relying on English and feel like an outsider. The more you dive deep into the language, the more attached you feel. That's very rewarding.
So you recently went to Taiwan, you said?
That's right, yes, very recently. The only people who speak English are at the hotels. Beyond that, they really don't speak much English or at all. If you know Mandarin, it's very beneficial because I came with my partner, and there were situations we had to figure out.
Hardly anyone talks about stuff like that. You have to go out of your way unless you like math or something. You have to find it yourself, look it up, and study it. It's very particular.
Yeah, so it's interesting that you also experienced a similar thing. That's really cool.
So you said you understood everyone. How was your speaking? Were you able to easily speak with people?
I spoke no problem. I had a funny story while I was in Taiwan. We were looking for a certain cup that was only located at Starbucks. I went to one Starbucks, and we couldn't find the cup, so we had to ask the staff.
I had to talk to him because my partner didn't know how to ask the specific question: is there any other Starbucks that has this specific cup? I had to ask where the address was, where I had to go, if I had to turn left or right. I used Google Maps, but Taiwan's a little funky with Google Maps because it can go off tangent sometimes.
Oh yeah.
I had some friends I met on the internet just for fun, and I actually met them. They picked me up at the airport. I was very nervous because I never talked to real Taiwanese people. I understood everything and was able to make jokes with them. We had a good time. It was great.
Yeah, I would definitely go back and recommend everyone to make friends and talk to them in their native language.
That is so cool. I think that alone should influence people to start learning a different language. That's...
Why, that's why I wanted to make this channel because, like, it feels, it feels like that. Like, I just kind of want to express that feeling of, like, what it feels like. It's just, it's so cool. And like, yeah, I mean, I remember when I found Steve's channel as well. Um, yeah, he was, it was very motivating. Like, you know, you, you, you get brought in because, like, obviously he's, you know, speaks a bunch of languages and it's really impressive and all that.
So yeah, I kind of want to get a little bit, dive a little bit deeper into, like, the method of how, uh, you've gotten this far and how you study because I think this is a great opportunity for me to learn, uh, maybe how to use things better. Um, I also want to talk about, like, how you focus because I imagine you're spending a lot of hours doing this.
Kind of to jump back a little bit when it comes to you going to, like, Taiwan and stuff, um, how much speaking practice do you think you had at that point? Speaking practice within the four years or when I start, before I started speaking?
Um, basically, yeah, like in the four years, like, at what point do you start speaking or do you think is a good point, I guess?
In my opinion, a good time to start speaking is when you understand the other party as if you could listen to something and understand maybe 80%, 90%, because you want to be very comfortable with what they're saying. The thing is, if you hyper-focus on learning one language, like I did for Mandarin, you will start thinking in the language, you'll dream in the language, and sometimes you'll be talking to yourself and that you might not know this word, so that your brain needs to fulfill this curiosity. It's like, I don't know this word, can you look it up? So you get your Google Translate, you look up the word, and bam, you will automatically speak eventually because you're always doing it, small habits every day for it.
I started speaking a year and a half after I listened about 4,000 hours of Mandarin, but this is at the part that I can start talking and understanding 80% of what the other part is saying, and I can start developing. But the thing is, when I started speaking beforehand, I was always, like, on my phone using Google Translate, and I would always try to fulfill thoughts in my head in Mandarin, and I would use Google Translate to fulfill the void, like the words I did not know. So that was my secret thing. I don't think nobody really talks about using Google Translate. It's very powerful if you're using it the right way.
But I also did shadowing, but that's a whole different activity because when it comes to speaking, there's three different things you can do. There's, you can use Google Translate, that's one option. You have language classes, and you have shadowing. So classes, in my opinion, are useful, but people use them for very different purposes.
But my purpose of the language class is to increase confidence because confidence is technically one big thing because we try to say your first few words, you tend to struggle. And to get that out of the way, you need someone that is not judgmental, as Steve Kaufman mentioned. You need someone that will listen to you and not give you a weird look and that you will not give up because of it.
I would use language classes for confidence to start speaking. I would use Alexander Gaius's method for shadowing to improve the accuracy closest to a native speaker. I did only about 40, like overall, and that just gives me enough that I sound very obviously like a foreigner, but they understand me. And the Google Translate is to give me the accuracy.
So if I'm saying something, I can always look back and type a sentence and see if I said it correctly. So grammar corrections, know how to say a certain word. So that's how I would start speaking personally.
So before you started doing like classes or tutoring or italki or whatever you did, if I heard you correctly, were you like making your own sentences trying to, you're saying you were trying to fulfill like thoughts in your head. So were you trying to speak to yourself at some point before and or during?
Exactly. I would pretty much say in my head phrases that I would say in real life because when you sit in an empty room, your brain and your thoughts will automatically start talking to itself. And that's usually what your normal thoughts. That's just how I see it psychology wise.
You know, kind of recently I've seen that a lot of people that get really good. There's a lot of really good Japanese speakers, foreigners that are like super good at Japanese and a lot of them will say that, yeah, like they, they talk to themselves and that's something that I've been trying to do more recently. I started making flashcards with like sentences of things that I actually like want to say. And that alone has been like one of the most like important exercises I think I've ever, I've ever done. And I need to do a lot more of it because what I struggled with is like, yeah, my listening comprehension being way higher than my speaking.
You know, I was under the impression for a while that if you just listened enough, that eventually it would just naturally come out. But for me, I was one of those people where it never really felt natural to, to speak. And again, like, and also like I haven't, it's not like I've had 10,000 hours of listening. So like, I can't really say that, oh, well I had 10,000 hours, you know, I don't know if that person that had 10,000 hours of listening could actually do that. But I, for me, I just kind of getting to the point where I'm like, okay, I actually do want to start speaking, you know, I, I think that's probably the best time to start speaking is when you feel like you just kind of want to start speaking.
But so you, you did that from day one, you would say, basically you just started like, so did you want to speak from day one? You're not really one of those people that are concerned about like, oh, if I need to wait a thousand hours.
Pretty much. I had the desire to speak about one year in, but I told myself that I should probably wait a little bit longer because I used a chart called the ALG. I'm not sure you've heard of it. Matt versus Japan made a video about it. It's like the Thailand program, this guy.
I think we watched the same videos because I feel like I, I, we, I know like all the references. I, I feel like at this point, I think we're best friends is what I'm saying.
Yeah. Definitely. And the ALG is like a really good place to get ideas because there's one article in there in the archives in the website. It mentions about this chart that gives you like an idea roughly how long does it take to speak because they've so hyper-focused on listening first because in Thailand, they made all the students listen for at least 800 hours of active class time, which is a lot. So I can go for a year or two and they eventually will start naturally speaking, but because the thing is they're hyper-focused on that language and they're in the country for survival. So it kind of gives them an advantage.
Yeah. But I'm sure that the listening does help them speak eventually naturally. You know, it's kind of like the, the, the, the water thing. Um, I,
