Native-like German by an obviously incredibly talented American guy

I came across this video today and I must say his German is not just excellent, but simply incredible. His intonation, his accent, the way he phrases his sentences: he sounds like a native speaker to me. I have watched his video several times and I am just flabbergasted.

Some people might argue that he probably makes the odd mistake if he has to speak for hours (and I guess he does make mistakes, just like lots of native speakers of German), but I find his achievement simply outstanding.

Speaking with a native-like accent is not one of my top priorities when I study languages, but if that is what you are aiming at, this guy may have something to say about it.

I’ve never seen him on youtube before, but all I can say is: hats off!

P.S. Here’s the link to his video:

I think David is also a member of lingq, somehow his face looks familiar to me even though I don’t think I have ever talked to him or seen any of his videos before :wink:

@lovelanguagesII - David is actually a member here at LingQ: Login - LingQ :slight_smile:

Thanks, Alex. I just checked out his profile. He seems to be also very modest since he wrote that his level of German is “advanced”. I’d say his German is as good as it can get and that involves many native speakers. Very, very impressive and motivating. It is great to watch somebody whose hard work (and I am sure he has worked VERY HARD to be able to speak like that) obviously paid off.

Hi Robert, David’s German is outstanding and I’ve never met a non-native speaker which such a good knowledge of the language. I can say that his German is better than the German of a lot of native speakers. It is very rare that I can hear a sound, a word or an expression that doesn’t sound German to me.

At the moment he studies Chinese in Germany and in the summer he will study abroad in China. As far as I know his Spanish is very good too and he speaks some other languages with a good command.

He used to be my tutor some time ago and we had a great time together.

I can only judge his German from the short video. The range of vocabulary on display is rather limited so it is not possible to really judge it based on this video alone but his melody, pronounciation and phrasing are truly amazing, absolutely native, certainly even better than Luca. His Spanish sounded fabulous as well.

The really interesting question is whether there is a close corellation between pronounciation and true command of the language in terms of comprehension and active vocabulary. As an extreme and hypothetical case let’s consider a very talented linguist/actor who is capable to recite memorised text in any given language including languages he does not understand nor speak with perfect pronounciation. Such a case may not even be an impossibility.

P.S.: Vielleicht ist der Ausdruck “In Deutschland angekommen” einen Hauch non-native, ich denke man würde eher sagen “nach Deutschland gekommen”. Aber bei so perfekter Aussprache merkt man es vielleicht auch gar nicht.

@Friedemann: “…Aber bei so perfekter Aussprache merkt man es vielleicht auch gar nicht…”

That’s interesting. There is a school of thought which says the opposite: i.e. that people notice non-native elements EVEN MORE if a person is speaking with an excellent accent.

I once had a fellow student who had a German mother and an English father. He was brought up in England, but his mother spoke some German with him when he was a kid. I remember him saying that German native speakers were often slightly freaked-out by him, because he spoke with perfect accent and intonation - yet there were gaps in his vocabulary, he sometimes phrased things in a non-native way, etc.

It’s possible that if someone is speaking German with (for example) a light Spanish accent, people would actually have a greater tendency to “filter out” any minor errors, because they would already be switched-on to the fact that the person were a non-native.

BTW
Yes, this David guy is pretty impressive. If such people are able to achieve a near-perfect accent - good for them. But for most adult learners striving for a “native accent” is a complete red-herring, IMO.

ad Friedemann: (…) P.S.: Vielleicht ist der Ausdruck “In Deutschland angekommen” einen Hauch non-native, ich denke man würde eher sagen “nach Deutschland gekommen”. (…)

Ich finde, dass beide Formulierungen ok sind. Er sagt ja, “als ich hier angekommen bin” und das klingt im vorliegenden Kontext sehr idiomatisch. Er spricht völlig frei und da sind solche Formulierungen meiner Meinung nach vollkommen natürlich.

I might say a few things differently from him but not because he sounds “foreign” but simply because he has his own personal style of speaking. I’m sure you and I say quite a few things differently, despite the fact that we both are native speakers of German. For me as an Austrian he sounds like a German by the way. Not only due to his accent but also because of the way he pronounces certain words and his choice of words in general (like the use of “mal” and the way he pronounces “Mathematik”).

As for his command of the German language I’m sure that somebody speaking with as much ease as he obviously does, has an excellent knowledge of the language as a whole. He does not need to know every word and he is certainly “allowed” to make a few mistakes to still be considered simply outstanding (something which you did not question anyway, I know). I have re-watched some of the videos where I speak German and even I as a native speaker had a couple of slip-ups which I only noticed once I had finished the video. Of course, I know how to say these things correctly but if you speak off the cuff (as David seems to have done) and if you don’t want to redo the entire video you just leave things as they are. That happens all the time when native speakers talk to each other, doesn’t it? We do not correct ourselves because we expect the other person to know the correct form anyway.

And since David, in my opinion, in that video is absolutely on par with a native speaker of German I’d say whatever minuscule slip-up he may have had (I could not detect any since even the “als ich hier angekommen bin” sounds correct to me considering the context and the flow of his speech), he certainly has achieved something he can be proud of. I think we ought to give honour where honour is due. And I’m glad that you share my opinion in this respect since you gave him credit too for his outstanding command of German. And you certainly are a “tough marker” :wink:

(…) The really interesting question is whether there is a close corellation between pronunciation and true command of the language in terms of comprehension and active vocabulary. (…)

I don’t think so. I know quite a few people who speak with a strong accent and are absolutely fluent. I do believe, though, that there is a correlation between pronunciation and the perceived command of a language. I notice that all the time at conferences. The less obvious the foreign accent of an interpreter, the more people seem to assume that whatever he or she says is correct. People speaking with a strong accent are perceived as less “trustworthy” when it comes to their interpreting. Being an interpreter myself, I would never make that kind of assumption but I know for a fact that this kind of thinking is widespread among the audiences at conferences, especially if the people listening are monolingual.

Ad Jay: (…) If such people are able to achieve a near-perfect accent (…)

I’d say in David’s case you can leave out the “near”. His accent to me is perfect. As I stated in some of my previous postings, I think that as a rule none of us can produce the same results every day throughout the day. So he may have days where he sounds less native. I have days where I am not happy with my level of German even though it is my mother tongue. When I’m tired, distracted etc. I certainly don’t speak as well as I ought to. True, native speakers usually make mistakes that differ from those foreigners make but I assume that any mistake David may make from time to time is probably more likely to sound like a mistake by a native speaker of German than one you would expect from a foreigner.

Besides, we should not forget that making mistakes is intrinsically human and nothing to be ashamed of. I am sure that especially for people who strive for a “native accent” his video is truly inspirational. I content myself with “professional fluency” (I just came up with that term lol) in my working languages and the ability to communicate in all the other languages I study as a hobby.

ad Robert: “…he certainly has achieved something he can be proud of. I think we ought to give honour where honour is due…”

I agree. Speaking for myself, I think I would be the last person who would ever “dishonour” what someone else has achieved (and that would be equally true no matter what their level.)

ad Robert: “…I’d say in David’s case you can leave out the “near”. His accent to me is perfect…”

Well, okay, then let’s say that his accent is 110% perfect! :wink:

However I still stand by my point: most adult learners are never going to achieve perfection/near-perfection in their accents. So why would they beat themselves up trying to reach this level?

We should remember: there are some learners who do actually feel BAD about their accent, even though they may speak entirely clearly and understandably. In my opinion this is something which can really hold people back, or in an extreme case perhaps even inhibit them from speaking at all.

Striving for this kind of ultra-perfectionism is generally a bad thing, IMO.

In some cases nailing a certain accent/pronounciation requires some sounds that one might not have in one’s repertoire or which one may find difficult to produce. For example a standard Norwegian accent from the Oslo area requires a rolled r which I just find very unnatural and unpleasant doing. If one descides not to do it one sounds different and might at best be identified as someone from a Western region of Norway where they have the unrolled r.

Also in Danish they have some gluttural sounds that I find very unpleasant physically to produce.

@Friedemann

Spoken Danish (at least the standard Copenhagen dialect) is notorious for being very hard to master!

Personally I think I would find the light tones of Norwegian (and Swedish) words equally hard to crack. It’s a shame, because in terms of grammar and vocabulary I reckon I would find all of these languages quite easy.

The thing with Danish is also that I really dislike the sound of it, it sounds downright ugly to me. This is another important thing I think. How can you try to get close to the sound of a language that you dislike?

Yes, I think you’re on to something there, Friedemann. I believe people can indeed have strong psychological barriers towards the sound of a particular language, and this can be a real motivation-drainer for hobby-linguists. (Obviously if you need to learn something for professional reasons, I guess such aesthetic considerations would take a back seat.)

It is, however, entirely subjective for each indivdual learner. Personally I don’t have any dislike for the sound of Danish. But I do somewhat dislike French and Castillian Spanish (even though many people consider these to be very elegant sounding languages!) On the other hand, European Portuguese (which some folks aren’t too hot about) does sound very good in my ears.

It’s a personal thing, I guess.

ad Jay: (…) We should remember: there are some learners who do actually feel BAD about their accent, even though they may speak entirely clearly and understandably. In my opinion this is something which can really hold people back, or in an extreme case perhaps even inhibit them from speaking at all.

Striving for this kind of ultra-perfectionism is generally a bad thing, IMO. (…)

That is basically what I have been saying in all my vids and been writing here on the forum as well. Perfectionism to me is a bad thing if it makes people feel like a failure just because they don’t achieve their goals. If you strive for an excellent accent and try to do all you can to achieve your goal but if at the end of the day you still settle for whatever result you are able to produce because you know you have given all you had, then striving for as high a goal as possible does not seem a bad thing to me.

But, as I said before, I think people put way too much emphasis on speaking without an accent instead of concentrating on vocabulary and a command of grammar which ensures you are comprehensible to others.

I’d rather speak with an accent but have a rich vocabulary and good comprehension skills. A native-like accent may be the icing on the cake but without a solid foundation in terms of grammar skills and vocabulary the cake will still taste kind of insipid :wink:

However, with regard to David I have to say that he does not strike me as someone who has tried, by hook or by crook, to speak without an accent. It seems to have been something which simply came as the result of his endeavours. He said quite clearly in his video that he loved German from day one and I guess this motivation was crucial. There may be times when despite all your motivation and passion you may not be as “successful” as others, but that is just the way things are. People are good at different things. We can all learn foreign languages, but the level of proficiency will differ due to a variety of factors.

I don’t think you can actually “learn” how to speak without an accent. I have seen people attend phonetics courses at university for years and they still speak with a strong accent, while others just imitate the accent of native speakers and are doing incredibly well. Accent is the one thing where I believe that talent (for imitation) plays a major role.

Besides, I found phonetics always terribly boring and managed to avoid those classes altogether but one. I miserably failed the class for English phonetics, but fortunately could get the necessary credits from another class I took. Despite my failure to pass the phonetics exam, I manage to make myself understood quite well in English.

Personally, I am not too keen on all those “linguistic analyses” (they might be interesting if you want to get into linguistics as such but as a “simple” language learner I just find them dead boring, even though they may work for some people; we simply have to accept the fact that we are different and therefore pursue different approaches when it comes to learning languages), all I do is listen and imitate. That’s it.

As long as I am happy with the results, I don’t really care what other people think. There will always be some perfectionists out there trying to pick holes in anything you do or say. It is best to ignore such people. While constructive criticism is great, I don’t see any benefit in listening to people who are just out there to find fault with whatever you do or who set goals for you.

You need to know what you want to achieve and if not speaking with a native-like accent is something you are perfectly happy with, I think there is no reason whatsoever to feel intimidated or discouraged by people who have managed to speak without an accent.

If you feel good about yourself and your own efforts, the achievements of others can only be a source of motivation. Why should I envy someone or feel intimated by somebody else’s hard work if I am perfectly happy with what I have? Watching others succeed has never held me back, quite on the contrary.

My praise for his accent would be worthless : ) But I’m impressed by-proxy that his accent is totally native.

Hope I’m not too off topic here but; do you think an ability to mimic different accents / dialects in your own native language is pretty much the same skill as mimicking the speech of a foreign language?

ad maths: (…) Hope I’m not too off topic here but; do you think an ability to mimic different accents / dialects in your own native language is pretty much the same skill as mimicking the speech of a foreign language? (…)

If the accent/dialect you mimic is different enough from your own, then I think yes. For me, imitating “Vorarlbergisch” for example would be at least as hard as nailing the accent in Dutch I guess. I have to admit though that “Vorarlbergerisch” is Alemannic and as such much closer to Swiss German than Austrian German.

ad Friedemann: (…) The thing with Danish is also that I really dislike the sound of it, it sounds downright ugly to me. This is another important thing I think. How can you try to get close to the sound of a language that you dislike? (…)

I am sure we all have our likes and dislikes. The important thing is to understand that there is a difference between disliking the sound of a language and disliking the people speaking it. I’m saying this because I keep hearing people say how “ugly” Croatian sounds to them while they think Russian is so beautiful. When you then ask them to explain to you why, most of the time their responses simply mirror the prejudices they hold against the people who speak the language (of course, there are also those who really just don’t like the sound of Croatian but I find it hard to believe that one can “hate” the sound of Croatian and “love” the sound of Russian).

The same happens with Turkish, especially in Austria and Germany. If there were not so many misconceptions about Turkey (I’m not going to get into any details here now) and if people were just to “judge” the language by the way it sounds and by its incredible richness, I’m convinced it would be a really popular language. Things are changing though, fortunately. But it is still disturbing to see how certain people reacted for example when the Green Party in Austria suggested that Turkish be taught as a language to choose from for your A level exams at our high schools. Our right wing party almost exploded (well, if only it had :wink: arguing that this would equal another “Turkish siege” of Vienna. Of course, their arguments just show what a brainless bunch of people they are but their reaction is also indicative of how much influence non-linguistic aspects have on how we perceive a language.

I would never even start to study a language the sound of which I don’t like. If, for whatever reason, I were made to study that language I would be bad at it because I just would not spend enough time studying it and probably not care much about sounding good. So, no, if you don’t like a language you probably won’t be as good as you would be if you chose a language you like.

P.S. I think German also has an “image problem” because of WWII. Most people who I talked to and who thought German sounded “harsh” came up with some weird examples from a WWII movie where they actually made Germans (and Austrians) sound like barking dogs.

ad Robert: “…But it is still disturbing to see how certain people reacted for example when the Green Party in Austria suggested that Turkish be taught as a language to choose from for your A level exams at our high schools. Our right wing party almost exploded (well, if only it had :wink: arguing that this would equal another “Turkish siege” of Vienna…”

Well, I’m pretty rightwing - and I think it would be an excellent thing if Turkish were offered as a subject in German and Austrian schools. In fact I’m slightly amazed that this isn’t already the case!

It’s the same thing here in the UK - I think we should offer languages such as Polish and Urdu in our schools rather than the usual bog-standard choice of French German and Spanish.

ad Jay: (…) Well, I’m pretty rightwing (…)

What I meant by that term were nationalists and racists, because that is what our “right wing party” is made of. “Right wing” in the sense of conservative to me is a totally different matter. It is simply incredible how they would consider “education” a threat, but then again that’s probably what they are really afraid of, i. e. that people get a proper education and would finally start to see what load of nonsense that party produces every day.

The funniest thing is that their official party paper is always filled with grammatical and spelling mistakes, even in sentences where they complain about foreigners not speaking proper German.

I’m pretty lef-wing in most areas, but downright conservative when it comes to the prosecution of criminals. I probably have seen too many people getting off the hook after having committed hideous crimes when I was still working as a court interpreter to believe that treating them with kid gloves is going to do any good. But that’s a completely different matter. So, yes, the more languages are taught, the better.

P. S. I love how the breaks at today’s conference give me time to post comments here. When I’m back home translating I normally don’t have that much spare time during the day :wink:

@ J_for_Jones - I would love to see languages taught more in British schools, but only if the way they are taught is changed. Without a change, I would rather see them dropped altogether. At the moment, it is just a pointless waste of time; the only thing people learn is to hate learning languages.

(Of course one can say that for a lot of school subjects, but I think language classes are the most extreme example.)

@Friedemann:
“P.S.: Vielleicht ist der Ausdruck “In Deutschland angekommen” einen Hauch non-native, ich denke man würde eher sagen “nach Deutschland gekommen”. Aber bei so perfekter Aussprache merkt man es vielleicht auch gar nicht.”
Das ist hier wörtlich zu verstehen, denn David hat vor einigen Jahren schon Germanistik in Deutschland studiert und er bezieht sich auf diese erste Zeit in Deutschland.