Latin Pronunciation
djeff 0
Hello, I'm just starting here and wonder if there's a version of these lessons that uses the classical rather than the ecclesiastical pronunciation.
November 2011
  • [[1892uDH]] 0
    I'm only new to Latin myself and prefer the Classical pronunciation. Good work by those people creating lessons (or is it only Mikebond?). But, I do love the classical style.
    November 2011
  • mikebond 627 17123 111
    It's almost only mikebond (alleray recorded some lessons too), and mikebond learnt the Ecclesiastical pronunciation at school. He translated AND recorded the lessons himself.
    Someone else can make another translation and a new recording with the Classical pronunciation.
    November 2011
  • djeff 0
    I'm not new to Latin, just this site as a way to brush up on it, and haven't spent any time on it yet. I definitely prefer the classical pronunciation, as the ecclesiastical is a distortion - not that I have anything against Italian.

    By the way, I was very impressed with Mikebond's profile! Danged Europeans have all the advantages when it comes to learning multiple languages. Would you like to see my one-page satire of Rigoletto I wrote for my 2nd-year Italian class, Mike? Some people found it amusing, at least.

    November 2011
  • [[1892uDH]] 0
    Eeek, I don't like that word 'distortion'. Makes it sound like something terrible. haha It's just as valid...perhaps moreso, because it's got a history. The thing is, for me at least, that I just don't belong to the religion. Given a choice, I'll go with the classical pronunciation because I'm not learning Latin to be able to read Latin prayers in Church. Instead, I'm interested in the literature of the Roman Empire firstly and the other stuff comes later for me. Also, I've got a large linguistic interest, and looking at older forms of the language are of interest to me, in regards to their its relation with other ancient IE languages. The classical pronunciation works better when comparing to Greek, Sanskrit, Avestan, etc. It's about being comfortable.
    November 2011
  • djeff 0
    Okay, how about 'mutation' then? That's the way languages evolve in fact. I still have nothing against Italian, but since you mentioned it the ecclesiastical reminds me of a certain organization of which you could say I am anything but an admirer.

    I've recently taken a look at Greek in some detail and enjoyed widening my horizons a bit, but like you I find it discouraging that all the texts for ancient Greek insist on using biblical texts for their source material. Besides that those horrid breath marks are always cluttering up the text - what did the Greeks have against using a letter for the 'h' sound anyway?

    Languages for me are an enjoyable hobby, with the advantage that it makes me feel educated compared to a lot of people in this boring monoculture called the USA.
    November 2011
  • [[1892uDH]] 0
    Yeah, mutation is good. In the neutral, bioligicalesque type of way.

    If you get into Greek and want to read something other than the bible, you'll have to not study New Testament Greek (or the Septuagint for that matter). Studying Classical Greek itself will offer texts written by a large range of authors, much like studying Classical Latin will.

    I not comment on the 'cluttering' up on texts. I love the way Vietnamese is written...so...yeah... haha :D

    Monoculture is the mindset, but not the reality. It's that they don't want to see anything past it. When I go to the USA, I want to go there to study Navajo language.
    November 2011
  • Administrator
    steve 7243 168 55542
    djeff, welcome to LingQ. Have you tried using our resources for Italian? On the other hand perhaps one of our Italian native speakers could be induced to record your one page satire in Italian and you could put it into our Italian library.

    Re the US monoculture, it is no different than the situation in many other English speaking countries, or even other large countries like China, Japan, and more. However, some of our keenest members and polyglots here at LingQ are from the good old US of A.
    November 2011
  • [[1892uDH]] 0
    That's true, Steve. It's the same here in Australia. It's not as if America is to blame for it. That nation just happens to be in a position of influence right now. At earlier stages it was others. The Romans, at one stage. The French, etc.

    There are always those, in each place, which are interested in stepping outside the boundaries of their own languages and culture to explore others. That's something which is, sadly, not celebrated enough. Perhaps, if the average person did understand the benefits and reasons behind this exploration, they too would engage in it.
    November 2011
  • djeff 0
    Thanks, Steve, I'll check out the Italian site for that.
    November 2011
  • tames 0
    Using the Italian pronunciation can be confusing for us beginners. When I heard the first lesson, I had to double check that I was not in the Italian language mode. However, I did like the relaxed tone. Most of the Latin I have heard so far (on other websites) have been rather heavy and perhaps too formal. Thanks to those that are putting this together!
    December 2011
  • mikebond 627 17123 111
    Guys, no one is FORCING anyone to learn a particular pronunciation of Latin! I OFFER a service, that you can FREELY CHOOSE to use or not! Stop complaining or you won't get anything more. I don't like the Brazilian Portuguese pronunciation very much (no offense meant to anyone!) but I don't complain about it being ugly! I just wish there were more texts in European Portuguese in the library. When I use a lesson with a text read by a Brazilian, sometimes I just read it without listening to it. You can do the same. I wonder when in your life you will need to pronounce Latin!

    And it's not the Italian pronunciation, it's the pronunciation that has been used by the Catholic Church for centuries! http://bit.ly/gQqFkU

    I warn you, guys. If someone else complains about the pronunciation, I will unshare all the Latin lessons I published, even if this means I would get fewer points every month. I have never seen so many people complain about pronunciation. You can still look for someone who use the Classic pronunciation and ask them to record the lessons for you.

    Sorry if this post sounds harsh, but I'm really tired of these useless protests.
    December 2011
  • [[1892uDH]] 0
    I love Classical Latin and Brazilian Portuguese. :P

    I'll just add, that I never complained about the pronunciation: It's that I prefer the classical period and am not a part of the religion which has the pronunciation you use.

    Relax Mikebond. Forget the haters.
    December 2011
  • djeff 0
    Geez, Mike, no one is insisting that you offer the classical pronunciation; we're just asking. Also, I am aware that it's not exactly the Italian either, but it is close to it. Peace.
    December 2011
  • mikebond 627 17123 111
    Yirtse, I noticed your posts were not merely critical.

    Jeff, I realised you were not insisting that I offer the classical pronunciation, still you kind of disapproved my choice to use the ecclesiastical pronunciation.

    Before starting recording the first lessons, I thought about trying to use the classical pronunciation, but I eventually gave up because it would have sounded too unnatural, since I'm not used to it.
    December 2011
  • djeff 0
    Hello Mike,

    I wonder if you could help me with one sentence that I'm not sure I got right, and that is the Latin for "What does not kill me makes me stronger." I'm no Randian - far from it - but someone I know asked me about it. I came up with "Quod me non occidet (necat?) me fortior(em/am?) facit."

    Appreciate any help or suggestions you have!

    Djeff
    December 2011
  • mikebond 627 17123 111
    "Quod me non necat/occidit me fortiorEM facit."

    "Fortior" is the nominative, but here you need an accusative because "me" is the object. "Fortioram" doesn't exist.
    December 2011
  • djeff 0
    Thanks, I wasn't sure whether it would be nom or acc, but wouldn't forioram work if 'me' was referring to a female?
    December 2011
  • mikebond 627 17123 111
    No. The ending -am only applies to nouns, adjectives and pronoun in -a belonging to the first declension: puella-puellam, agricola-agricolam...
    Comparatives follow the third declension, where the accusative has the same form for masculine and feminine (-em).
    December 2011
  • djeff 0
    Rats, you beat me to it - I just figured that out. This is how one learns though, by actually putting sentences together.
    December 2011
  • djeff 0
    Hey Steve,

    I got lost trying to find where to post my Italian paper or how to contact a native speaker to record it, should s/he think it's worthwhile. I could upload it right here if that's okay, or you could tell me exactly which links to follow to get there.

    Thanks,

    Djeff
    December 2011
  • Fasulye 1415 2707
    I have just test-listened a beginner's dialogue Latin uploaded by Mikebond. At school in the 1970-s I learned the old fashioned Latin pronounciation with the strong German accent and I must say that I like very much the "Italian way" of pronounciating Latin, because it sounds very natural for me and like a living language. I am studying Turkish at LingQ (so not Latin) but I would orientate myself on the "Italian way" of pronouncing Latin as I also like the Italian language very much. So Mikebond, please don't withdraw your excellent Latin lessons here from LingQ, this would make me very sad.

    Kind regards,

    Fasulye
    September 2012
  • mikebond 627 17123 111
    Thanks, Fasulye. I am glad you like my lessons. I won't withdraw them but I am unlikely to translate more, at least not until there is a bigger number of students that could justify my effort.
    September 2012
  • djc463 215 538 8259
    I'm curious, what accent is used for songs like Mozart's Requiem, Ave Maria, Adeste Fideles, Carmina Burana, etc? I'm assuming it's generally ecclesiastical, since most of these songs are religious (except Carmina Burana), but I thought I'd ask.
    September 2012
  • Ernie 5065
    From what I've heard, often an ecclesiastical pronunciation is used. There also seems to be a "middle European" pronunciation that is sometimes used for recordings of classical church music. As I recall, it could be heard a generation ago in recordings by the Vienna Boys Choir, say in Mozart. The Russian also have their own regional pronunciation. If you're interested I can transcribe the "rules" for the Rus. pronunciation, but as far as the other, all I vaguely remember is that "ts" was sometimes used for "c," as w/ the Russian pronunciation.

    . . . Fasulye, perhaps you could describe the German pronunciation for us?

    [expanded because I just read Fasulye's post]
    September 2012
  • Fasulye 1415 2707
    Ernie and others, if you want to hear which kind of Latin pronounciaton I learned at school in the 1970s, then you listen to the (short) podcast "Nuntii Latini Septimanales" broadcasted by "DRadioWissen" (Deutschlandfunk). This podcast is spoken in Latin with a German accent.

    Here is the link: http://wissen.dradio.de/nuntii-latini-septimana...

    Perhaps people can now understand better, why I like the Italian way so much of pronouncing Latin.

    Fasulye
    September 2012
  • eugrus 17101 40961 3160
    My idea of proper Latin pronunciation is based on Hans H. Ørberg's audiocourse (supplied with his "per se illustrata" book). Is his way of speaking worth imitating?
    September 2012
  • Ernie 5065
    Thanks, Fasulye. Very interesting. It isn't quite what I remember (notably the sound of the letter c), but my memory is probably wrong, or the accent I heard was a variant. Thanks for the link to the broadcasts.

    Eugrus, I would say it's worth imitating. It's sounds like a rather relaxed form of the "restored" pronunciation. People who favor the ecclesiastical pronunciation would probably not agree with me, however.
    September 2012
  • Al3 11336 7358 12813
    Fasulye, that's a great web site, thanks for sharing!
    September 2012
  • Fasulye 1415 2707
    Pronouncing Latin with a German accent there is one variant which pronounces the letter "c" always as a "k" and the other variant pronounces the "c" as the German letter "z" before "i, e" and as a "k" before "a, o, u".

    Thie first of these two variants is used in the German Latin podcasts (Nuntii Latini Septimanales).

    By the way, these Latin podcasts are posted with a Latin transcript and a translation in German on the website of Deutschlandfunk.

    Fasulye
    September 2012
  • djeff 0
    Good grief, how many versions of Latin pronunciation are there?

    I'll stick with the classical, because that's the way it actually was spoken to the best of anyone's knowledge, and also because it doesn't change depending on which country decides to bastardize it!

    How did c before e and i turn into s or ch in the first place? It makes no sense phonetically.
    September 2012
  • alleray 8112 13340 5928
    I once read that the pronunciation of c before e/i as "ts" was a late development of Latin as a living language before it became the Romance languages. It was conserved by the German pronunciation of Caesar as "Tsesar" and Cicero as "Tsitsero", whereas the word "Kaiser" reflects the older pronunciation of Caesar.
    Michele should be aware of the Venitian pronunciation of c before i/e as "ts" instead of "tsh", or am I mistaken? Likewise the pronunciation of g before e/i as "dz" instead of "dzh". However this change in pronunciation did not alter the pronunciation of Latin words containing a "g" in German (it's always pronounced "g").
    How did the pronunciation of c/g change in Latin in late Antiquity? There must have been many influences, some of them quite old. Celts, Germanic people, different Italic languages, Etrurians etc... there must have been a great variety of accents. The written language probably conserved an older form of the language artificially like in other languages (Greek, Arabic). There must have been many kinds of Latin around the Roman Empire. It's normal for languages to change over time. (k > kj > ts/tsh/s - this is called palatalisation, I assume).
    September 2012
  • r_d_moreno 2228
    I am new to Latin, but I was unaware that there were particular accents. I have only ever been exposed to the Ecclesiastical pronunciation, and therefore I am very happy that lessons are available in an accent that I am familiar with. Thank you for making the typical pronunciation of the Roman Catholic Church accessible to interested learners.
    September 2013