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PBS NewsHour 2020 July - Aug, These Black Americans see a statue memorializing Lincoln in different ways

These Black Americans see a statue memorializing Lincoln in different ways

Over the past few weeks, there has been extensive debate across the U.S. about statues depicting the Confederacy and other troubled aspects of American history. In the Capitol Hill neighborhood of Washington, D.C., the Emancipation Memorial – also known as the Freedman's Memorial -- is one such symbol. Jeffrey Brown talks to four Black Americans to gauge differing views on the structure. Read the Full Transcript Judy Woodruff:

There has been considerable conversation in this country about the taking down of Confederate statues. And there are many more debates brewing over the messages other memorials and statues send and how many people — and how people may perceive them differently.

In the Capitol Hill neighborhood of Washington, D.C., stands the Emancipation Memorial, which has been a flash point in recent weeks.

Jeffrey Brown talked to four Black Americans on their varied views on it.

It's part of our ongoing arts and culture series, Canvas. Jeffrey Brown:

A hot afternoon in Washington, D.C. Man:

I am reminded every single day that I am less than a white person, whether I want to admit it or not. Jeffrey Brown:

A heated exchange over a statue of Abraham Lincoln standing above a kneeling newly freed African American man.

Last month, protesters gathered to demand the statue be taken down. The National Park Service, which oversees the site, erected a fence as protection. Man:

This statue represents the oppression of Black people. Jeffrey Brown:

Twenty-year-old Harvard University student Glenn Foster helped organize the call to take down the statue. He sees one man shirtless, with broken shackles, at the feet of another man in a position of power. Glenn Foster:

How are you going to represent Black people looking free when you have them kneeling before a white man? What imagery does that teach our young children about our history?

And what does it teach them moving forward in terms of achieving their liberation and freedom on their own terms? A lot of older people believe that this statue is fine because of the context of where they have learned why it came to be, instead of understanding the imagery of what it stands for. Jeffrey Brown:

Set in Lincoln Park, the bronze statue, called the Emancipation or Freedman's Memorial, dates to 1876. It was intended to honor the slain president and commemorate the Emancipation Proclamation, the document signed by Lincoln to end slavery in the Confederacy. Marcia Cole:

Let's not negate what happened. You need physical evidence that proved what happened, so that we don't all have to go back to it again. That is the Black story. Jeffrey Brown:

And even now, instead of a symbol of subservience, Marcia Cole sees one of liberation. Marcia Cole:

I see an African American male figure on one knee, and he's in the process of rising. His head was up. He was looking forward to a life of freedom. And that's what I saw. Jeffrey Brown:

At the recent protests, Cole picked up a bullhorn, debated with activists, and made her case for keeping the statue.

For her, there's more to the story. She's studied and reenacts the life of Charlotte Scott, a freed African American woman who raised funds to build the memorial after Lincoln's assassination. Marcia Cole:

She could be my — one of my direct ancestors. So, I want people to know that they were individuals who had individual stories. Jeffrey Brown:

And for you, that story, her story, is intrinsically tied to the statue, and, therefore, keep the statue? Marcia Cole:

Exactly. It honors her generosity of heart.

I would like to see it remain as a teaching moment. Without artifacts, visual artifacts, people tend to forget. And this statue there, while it may provoke some discomfort, discomfort is good, because it would inspire inquiry. Jeffrey Brown:

The complications and complexities were there from the start, a memorial paid for by Blacks, but designed by a white sculptor, Thomas Ball, in a process controlled by a white-run organization.

The famed abolitionist and orator Frederick Douglass delivered an historic speech at the 1876 dedication, but also took the opportunity to point to Lincoln's shortcomings. And now those complexities have burst anew, as the nation confronts the continuing racism of today and the legacy it was built upon. Marcus Goodwin:

It's not Lincoln that's at issue. I'm fine with us memorializing him. He was a monumental president. But it's this depiction, specifically, that's the issue. Jeffrey Brown:

Last month, 30-year-old Marcus Goodwin, a Washington, D.C., real estate developer and now candidate for the D.C. Council, climbed atop the memorial, in public contrast to the kneeling man below.

He then launched a petition drive to remove and relocate the statute. Marcus Goodwin:

There's no such thing as erasing the past. My solution is to bring this into a museum, where it can be properly contextualized, where a docent can walk you through and tell you the history and the intentionality behind the art, because it doesn't achieve its intended goal. People see it. They see demeaning imagery.

And maybe it's a generational divide, but we don't see the type of fair and equitable representation that's inherent in the American dream. Jeffrey Brown:

If you take down or change the symbols or the monuments, is that not changing the past in some way? Marcus Goodwin:

No. In fact, you're changing the future. And you're doing it for the better, I would say. Jeffrey Brown:

Goodwin says he got the idea of relocating the statue after seeing reports of a similar demand in Boston, home to a replica of the same monument.

And in recent days, the Boston Art Commission voted unanimously to take it down, without yet deciding where it should go.

It's a debate, says Smithsonian secretary Lonnie Bunch, with many layers. Lonnie Bunch:

It is about history, but it's about who we are as a nation and who we want to be going forward. Jeffrey Brown:

One of the nation's preeminent historians, Bunch was also founding director of the National Museum of African American History and Culture. He told us he's for keeping the Emancipation Memorial, but perhaps adding another statue next to it of Frederick Douglass, for example, creating, in a sense, more history. Lonnie Bunch:

What I want to see is a reasoned process that allows us to discuss, that allows us to bring history before we make decisions of pulling things down.

I think that, yes, we could take that statue down. We could replace it with a statue that just talks about the enslaved. And I think what we'd do is, while, on the one hand, we enrich our understanding, on the other hand, I think we lose the opportunity to help people understand more about Lincoln and who he was and what he did. Jeffrey Brown:

Bunch thinks these memorials will have to be considered case by case, local decisions by commissions that move with care, but relatively quickly.

Does that surprise you, how kind of deep this has gone? Lonnie Bunch:

It has surprised me both how deep it's gone and how rapid it's gone, because the challenge is, the statue itself doesn't give us any sense of complexity, nuance or ambiguity. But that's what history does. Jeffrey Brown:

That may be a lot to ask in an America so greatly divided, seemingly not in a mood for complexity and nuance, now fighting over its past and future one statue at a time.

For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Jeffrey Brown.



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These Black Americans see a statue memorializing Lincoln in different ways

Over the past few weeks, there has been extensive debate across the U.S. about statues depicting the Confederacy and other troubled aspects of American history. sur les statues représentant la Confédération et d'autres aspects troublés de l'histoire américaine. In the Capitol Hill neighborhood of Washington, D.C., the Emancipation Memorial – also known as the Freedman's Memorial -- is one such symbol. Dans le quartier de Capitol Hill à Washington, DC, le mémorial de l'émancipation - également connu sous le nom de Freedman's Memorial - est l'un de ces symboles. Jeffrey Brown talks to four Black Americans to gauge differing views on the structure. Read the Full Transcript Judy Woodruff:

There has been considerable conversation in this country about the taking down of Confederate statues. Il y a eu une conversation considérable dans ce pays au sujet du retrait des statues confédérées. And there are many more debates brewing over the messages other memorials and statues send and how many people — and how people may perceive them differently. Et de nombreux autres débats se préparent sur les messages envoyés par d'autres monuments commémoratifs et statues et sur le nombre de personnes – et sur la façon dont les gens peuvent les percevoir différemment.

In the Capitol Hill neighborhood of Washington, D.C., stands the Emancipation Memorial, which has been a flash point in recent weeks. Dans le quartier de Capitol Hill à Washington, DC, se dresse le Mémorial de l'émancipation, qui a été un point d'éclair ces dernières semaines.

Jeffrey Brown talked to four Black Americans on their varied views on it.

It's part of our ongoing arts and culture series, Canvas. Cela fait partie de notre série continue sur les arts et la culture, Canvas. Jeffrey Brown:

A hot afternoon in Washington, D.C. Man:

I am reminded every single day that I am less than a white person, whether I want to admit it or not. Jeffrey Brown:

A heated exchange over a statue of Abraham Lincoln standing above a kneeling newly freed African American man. Un échange houleux autour d'une statue d'Abraham Lincoln debout au-dessus d'un Afro-américain nouvellement libéré agenouillé.

Last month, protesters gathered to demand the statue be taken down. The National Park Service, which oversees the site, erected a fence as protection. Man:

This statue represents the oppression of Black people. Jeffrey Brown:

Twenty-year-old Harvard University student Glenn Foster helped organize the call to take down the statue. Glenn Foster, un étudiant de 20 ans de l'Université de Harvard, a aidé à organiser l'appel pour abattre la statue. He sees one man shirtless, with broken shackles, at the feet of another man in a position of power. Il voit un homme torse nu, avec des chaînes brisées, aux pieds d'un autre homme en position de pouvoir. Glenn Foster:

How are you going to represent Black people looking free when you have them kneeling before a white man? What imagery does that teach our young children about our history?

And what does it teach them moving forward in terms of achieving their liberation and freedom on their own terms? Et qu'est-ce que cela leur apprend à aller de l'avant en termes de réalisation de leur libération et de leur liberté à leurs propres conditions ? A lot of older people believe that this statue is fine because of the context of where they have learned why it came to be, instead of understanding the imagery of what it stands for. Beaucoup de personnes âgées pensent que cette statue est bien en raison du contexte dans lequel elles ont appris pourquoi elle a été créée, au lieu de comprendre l'imagerie de ce qu'elle représente. Jeffrey Brown:

Set in Lincoln Park, the bronze statue, called the Emancipation or Freedman's Memorial, dates to 1876. Située à Lincoln Park, la statue de bronze, appelée l'Émancipation ou le mémorial de Freedman, date de 1876. It was intended to honor the slain president and commemorate the Emancipation Proclamation, the document signed by Lincoln to end slavery in the Confederacy. Il était destiné à honorer le président tué et à commémorer la Proclamation d'émancipation, le document signé par Lincoln pour mettre fin à l'esclavage dans la Confédération. Marcia Cole:

Let's not negate what happened. You need physical evidence that proved what happened, so that we don't all have to go back to it again. Vous avez besoin de preuves matérielles qui prouvent ce qui s'est passé, afin que nous n'ayons pas tous à y revenir. That is the Black story. Jeffrey Brown:

And even now, instead of a symbol of subservience, Marcia Cole sees one of liberation. Marcia Cole:

I see an African American male figure on one knee, and he's in the process of rising. Je vois un homme afro-américain sur un genou, et il est en train de se lever. His head was up. He was looking forward to a life of freedom. And that's what I saw. Jeffrey Brown:

At the recent protests, Cole picked up a bullhorn, debated with activists, and made her case for keeping the statue. Lors des récentes manifestations, Cole a pris un mégaphone, a débattu avec des militants et a plaidé pour le maintien de la statue.

For her, there's more to the story. Pour elle, il y a plus que l'histoire. She's studied and reenacts the life of Charlotte Scott, a freed African American woman who raised funds to build the memorial after Lincoln's assassination. Elle a étudié et reconstitue la vie de Charlotte Scott, une femme afro-américaine libérée qui a collecté des fonds pour construire le mémorial après l'assassinat de Lincoln. Marcia Cole:

She could be my — one of my direct ancestors. So, I want people to know that they were individuals who had individual stories. Jeffrey Brown:

And for you, that story, her story, is intrinsically tied to the statue, and, therefore, keep the statue? Et pour vous, cette histoire, son histoire, est intrinsèquement liée à la statue, et donc garde la statue ? Marcia Cole:

Exactly. It honors her generosity of heart.

I would like to see it remain as a teaching moment. J'aimerais qu'il reste comme un moment d'enseignement. Without artifacts, visual artifacts, people tend to forget. Sans artefacts, artefacts visuels, les gens ont tendance à oublier. And this statue there, while it may provoke some discomfort, discomfort is good, because it would inspire inquiry. Et cette statue là, même si elle peut provoquer un certain malaise, le malaise est bon, car il inspirerait la recherche. Jeffrey Brown:

The complications and complexities were there from the start, a memorial paid for by Blacks, but designed by a white sculptor, Thomas Ball, in a process controlled by a white-run organization. Les complications et les complexités étaient là dès le début, un mémorial payé par les Noirs, mais conçu par un sculpteur blanc, Thomas Ball, dans un processus contrôlé par une organisation dirigée par des blancs.

The famed abolitionist and orator Frederick Douglass delivered an historic speech at the 1876 dedication, but also took the opportunity to point to Lincoln's shortcomings. Le célèbre abolitionniste et orateur Frederick Douglass a prononcé un discours historique lors de la dédicace de 1876, mais a également profité de l'occasion pour souligner les lacunes de Lincoln. And now those complexities have burst anew, as the nation confronts the continuing racism of today and the legacy it was built upon. Et maintenant, ces complexités ont éclaté à nouveau, alors que la nation est confrontée au racisme persistant d'aujourd'hui et à l'héritage sur lequel elle s'est construite. Marcus Goodwin:

It's not Lincoln that's at issue. Ce n'est pas Lincoln qui est en cause. I'm fine with us memorializing him. Je suis d'accord avec nous pour le commémorer. He was a monumental president. But it's this depiction, specifically, that's the issue. Mais c'est précisément cette représentation qui est le problème. Maar het is deze afbeelding specifiek, dat is het probleem. Jeffrey Brown:

Last month, 30-year-old Marcus Goodwin, a Washington, D.C., real estate developer and now candidate for the D.C. Council, climbed atop the memorial, in public contrast to the kneeling man below. Conseil, a grimpé au sommet du mémorial, en contraste public avec l'homme agenouillé ci-dessous.

He then launched a petition drive to remove and relocate the statute. Il a ensuite lancé une pétition pour supprimer et déplacer le statut. Marcus Goodwin:

There's no such thing as erasing the past. Il n'y a rien de tel que d'effacer le passé. My solution is to bring this into a museum, where it can be properly contextualized, where a docent can walk you through and tell you the history and the intentionality behind the art, because it doesn't achieve its intended goal. Ma solution est de l'amener dans un musée, où cela peut être correctement contextualisé, où un guide peut vous guider et vous raconter l'histoire et l'intentionnalité derrière l'art, car il n'atteint pas son objectif. People see it. They see demeaning imagery.

And maybe it's a generational divide, but we don't see the type of fair and equitable representation that's inherent in the American dream. Et c'est peut-être un fossé générationnel, mais nous ne voyons pas le type de représentation juste et équitable inhérent au rêve américain. Jeffrey Brown:

If you take down or change the symbols or the monuments, is that not changing the past in some way? Marcus Goodwin:

No. In fact, you're changing the future. And you're doing it for the better, I would say. Jeffrey Brown:

Goodwin says he got the idea of relocating the statue after seeing reports of a similar demand in Boston, home to a replica of the same monument.

And in recent days, the Boston Art Commission voted unanimously to take it down, without yet deciding where it should go. Et ces derniers jours, la Boston Art Commission a voté à l'unanimité pour le retirer, sans encore décider où il devrait aller. En de afgelopen dagen heeft de Boston Art Commission unaniem gestemd om het te verwijderen, zonder nog te beslissen waar het heen moest.

It's a debate, says Smithsonian secretary Lonnie Bunch, with many layers. C'est un débat, dit Lonnie Bunch, secrétaire du Smithsonian, à plusieurs niveaux. Lonnie Bunch:

It is about history, but it's about who we are as a nation and who we want to be going forward. Jeffrey Brown:

One of the nation's preeminent historians, Bunch was also founding director of the National Museum of African American History and Culture. L'un des historiens les plus éminents du pays, Bunch a également été directeur fondateur du Musée national d'histoire et de culture afro-américaines. He told us he's for keeping the Emancipation Memorial, but perhaps adding another statue next to it of Frederick Douglass, for example, creating, in a sense, more history. Lonnie Bunch:

What I want to see is a reasoned process that allows us to discuss, that allows us to bring history before we make decisions of pulling things down. Ce que je veux voir, c'est un processus raisonné qui nous permette de discuter, qui nous permette d'apporter l'histoire avant de prendre la décision de faire tomber les choses.

I think that, yes, we could take that statue down. We could replace it with a statue that just talks about the enslaved. On pourrait la remplacer par une statue qui ne parle que des esclaves. And I think what we'd do is, while, on the one hand, we enrich our understanding, on the other hand, I think we lose the opportunity to help people understand more about Lincoln and who he was and what he did. Jeffrey Brown:

Bunch thinks these memorials will have to be considered case by case, local decisions by commissions that move with care, but relatively quickly. Bunch pense que ces mémoriaux devront être examinés au cas par cas, des décisions locales par des commissions qui se déplacent avec soin, mais relativement rapidement.

Does that surprise you, how kind of deep this has gone? Cela vous surprend-il, à quel point cela a-t-il été profond? Lonnie Bunch:

It has surprised me both how deep it's gone and how rapid it's gone, because the challenge is, the statue itself doesn't give us any sense of complexity, nuance or ambiguity. Cela m'a surpris à la fois à quel point c'est allé en profondeur et à quel point c'est allé rapidement, car le défi est que la statue elle-même ne nous donne aucun sentiment de complexité, de nuance ou d'ambiguïté. But that's what history does. Jeffrey Brown:

That may be a lot to ask in an America so greatly divided, seemingly not in a mood for complexity and nuance, now fighting over its past and future one statue at a time. C'est peut-être beaucoup demander dans une Amérique si divisée, apparemment pas d'humeur à la complexité et à la nuance, se battant maintenant pour son passé et son avenir une statue à la fois.

For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Jeffrey Brown.

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