Not quite the LingQ format
i dissagree that lingq intimidates a beginner. I am a beginner and I have enjoyed the site. I think it depends on how bad you want to learn and how much effort you want to put into it
In my opinion the written text should be only in the target language.
It is not too disturbing if there is a short note in another language in the audio, but I prefer to have audio only in the target language. For beginners it could be helpful to have audios with "native language" vs. "target language". I have some audio cds with vocab trainers that are not too bad, especially if you need to acquire some special vocabulary. Then lists can be helpful for example colors, numbers, alphabet, simple phrases etc.
For translation there is the excellent new translation tab available.
I hope that we'll have another tab for grammar explanation in the future. That would be great.
We should respect that learners are different. They should decide which kind of lessons they like. It can be discouraging for beginners if lessons are too difficult for them. I know the LingQ message is to stay encouraged and even start with spoken language in native speed, but for a lot of people it is hard to follow this rule. Let learners decide what they like. Freedom for learners :-)
Steve makes a good point above. What if say a French LingQer, who doesn't know English, tries that lesson? It will probably turn them off the site.
I think LingQ can provide support for beginners without resorting to English grammar explanations. I am currently learning Arabic from scratch. All you really need are about 50 or so 10 to 20 second lessons which can be LingQed with a sound embedded flashcard. As well, some multilingual explanation of the alphabet in the resources section.
The main problem with language learners is not inexperience in learning languages, it is too much experience of learning in the co-dependent classroom set up.
We have translations for a number of our beginner lessons.
It is up to providers to create the lessons that they want to create. Many have created grammar lessons, and explanations of the alphabet in the language for which they are providing lessons. It is not LingQ that does this. It is up to the providers. Remember too, that not all learners have English as their mother tongue.
We are open to all kinds of lessons, and do not impose any rigid philosophy on our providers. We are open to lessons like the one in question here, despite the reservations that I have expressed. That is why I am asking for the views of others. We just cannot have non-target language in the present lesson page. We also prefer native speakers only in the audio, but as I said above perhaps we should be more flexible in this. I await more comments.,
I will, however, continue to state my view that a focus on the target language, with a lot of repetitive listening, reading and word review, will produce better results than the more traditional approaches which provide a lot of explanation in the learner's language. Others may agree or disagree, or they may agree in principle, but still prefer the comfort of explanations in their own language. That is up to them.
I would expect that our learners regularly take advantage of other resources, such as FSI or google. In fact some of our third party content sources provide explanations and exercises at their own websites, and only give us audio and text lessons for our system,as a means of making our learners aware of the services that they provide. That is fine with us, and we would like to have more of this kind of cooperation with other language learning resources.
After all, as dooo says, LingQ is LingQ, and other sites have different approaches. We are happy to cooperate with these others sites, and our learners can help themselves to whatever works for them.
Well, if the purpose of LingQ is to serve the needs of experienced language learners, then the web site is close to perfect as it is. But face it, this web site can be a bit intimidating to a beginning language learner. I know - I came here 3 years ago, checked it out, and left.
It is not simply a question of dual language lessons vs single language lessons, or of grammar vs no grammar. Basic information about one's language is simply not available here. For example, in the Swedish section of LingQ, there is (apparently) no lesson presenting the alphabet, or explaining the basic sound system of the language. Do I need this before I jump into a dialog-type lesson? Well, maybe not, but it sure does help. Especially to a beginner who does not have a well developed ear for languages. Can I find this information elsewhere? Of course I can. But, having been forced to go download the FSI Swedish materials, for example, why would I see any need to return to LingQ?
Why not allow for beginner's materials of different types? LingQ should have all kinds of appealing and interesting lessons, such as this Korean lesson. (Inaccuracies should, of course, be corrected.) But the goal should be to provide comprehensible input at the beginner level, and not to adhere to any rigid philosophy of language learning.
The wonderful thing about language learning is that it is personal. We can choose to go about it however we like.
LingQ, however, is a system. We cannot have non-target language in our lessons or our statistics will be distorted. Grammatical notes can be accommodated in the Forum notes for now. We have on our todo list to enable an improved editable Notes section where all manner of grammatical notes can be created in different languages for our learners.
As to the audio part of the lesson, I find the English explanations here overwhelming, far more information than I can use. There is also the problem that not all learners speak English. A further problem is that the Korean speaker here is not native, and his pronunciation is, to my ears, more difficult to understand than a native speaker.
However, there are learners who like this kind of content. After all Michel Thomas is very popular, and is not native in the languages that he teaches.
I am inclined to edit the text and ask the provider to put the English explanations in a Forum comment or wait until we have our new editable Notes page.
I think we can leave the audio in the library, and just ask the provider to mention in his introduction to the collection that these lessons are for beginners, with a considerable amount of explanation in English, and that the Korean speaker is not a native speaker. Then it will be up to the learner to decide.
In other words if other providers want to provide Michel Thomas type introductory lessons with lots of explanations in English or other languages, they can do so, but should advise the learners of the nature of the lesson. We should also avoid having any non target language in the text.
How do you feel? Is this the right way to go with this?
I had my husband (native Korean) take a look at this lesson. He says that the speaker is saying he's "13" not 23. And while the lesson is okay, meaning nothing is technically wrong with it, it is not quite how he would say that he's studying Korean.
Personally, I think that all lessons should be in the target language. Lastly, I personally like lessons that contain grammatical explanations.
'Why not make some simple changes in the "LingQ format" to accommodate dual-language material? "
I would say because the grammar explanations don't help you learn the language, and in fact distract you. On a more practical level, there are tons of sites that already do this sort of thing. EG http://languagepod101.com/
I just had a look at the lesson in question. If I studied Korean, I would appreciate grammar notes - but not in the actual lesson but rather as "notes" (as Steve suggests).
Has anybody asked the provider to edit the content?
I am actually amazed that anyone would want to remove this type of lesson.
This is exactly the sort of material that could make LingQ more attractive, and less intimidating, to someone who is an absolute beginner in language learning - someone who has never learned any foreign language before. Or someone like me, who needs a lot of help to begin a new language. Sometimes I feel like this is a web site only for experienced polyglots who just want to "pick up" their next language, or for learners who are fairly advanced in their second language, and just want more practice.
Why not make some simple changes in the "LingQ format" to accommodate dual-language material? There is a tab on the import screen that allows one to enter a "translation." Just make another entry for "text of dual-language lesson." Then have the author of the lesson prepare a shortened audio version, having only the important L2 phrases of his lesson, for repeated listening. Easy to do in Audacity. Add a second audio bar for this. Then shorten the actual LingQ "Text" to correspond to the shortened audio.
And if this is too hard, just leave the lesson the way it is now. If someone is an L2 purist, they don't have to use this type of material.
what Korean lesson are we talking about, I'm a little confused whats wrong here.
I meant "at the very least" of course.
Thanks James, I am going out now, and will check in later and then decide what to do.
I would remove it if I were you. I never like it when my reports come back in English or my lessons have even the slightest bit of English in them. To me, this lesson looks boring and with the grammar section at the bottom, looks more like formal study. I think the person who put it up would do best putting it on a blog as a worksheet or something to those who are interested.