Hi people, I am new to LingQ and I am not sure if this is the correct place for French grammar discussion but here we go:
Sometimes I find it is easy to decide whether to use the imparfait or the passé composé, such as “je ne savais pas” for “I didn’t know” and “j’ai mangé” for “I have eaten”, but for other sentences it seems more difficult.
For instance: I want to write “the Battle of Verdun, where 300,000 died”. My first attempt was “la bataille de Verdun, où 300 000 mouraient” (imparfait).
However I am being told I should have written “la bataille de Verdun, où 300 000 sont morts” (passé composé). Now, I am getting confused with this because to me the second sentence says “where 300 000 are dead” and this is because the participe passé has to agree with an etre verb (so I have read) and this makes it the same as the adjective “dead”.
Any help much appreciated and I hope people can learn from the discussion.
If I understand correctly there are two exceptions where the general rules of when to use composé and imparfait won’t work. first one is a set of 16 verbs of motions like venir (and there derivatives like devenir). the second exception is reflexive verbs such as se passer, se lever and so on.
+Swedishfinnfrancophile
I think you’re mistaking two very different topics here.
The use of imparfait versus composé/simple.
The use of “être” vs “avoir” to build up compound tenses.
“Movement” verbs, reflexive verbs, etc. are special because of the use of “être”, not for any special use of imparfait vs. composé. The links you provide clearly relate to that point (point 2)
The question asked by the OP seems to be related to point 1.
+EddieSammon
Don’t forget that some French verbs use “être” as an auxiliary instead of “avoir”. In some circumstances that makes phrases such as
“They are dead” and “They have died/they died” translate to the same French expression!!!
In your example “They have died” / “They died” is meant. Not “They’re dead”.
One could simplify the use of “imparfait” to two main scenarios:
a) For most verbs, “passé composé” is the “default” past tense and you commonly use the “imparfait” only when you want to set up a time frame within which other actions would take place:
“300.000 soldats mouraient” suggest that you don’t want to talk about those soldiers dying but about something that happened as they were dying. The action of dying is a background. That is, the listener would expect you to complete the sentence with a more specific action, something like:
300.000 soldats mouraient et le général s’est sauvé.
If your main focus is the action of dying and you don’t plan to add a more specific action, don’t use imparfait but passé composé (or “passé simple” in a higher style).
b) A few verbs are commonly used to express states, for those the default tense is imparfait. “Je savais”, “J’avais”, “J’étais”, …
Oui, il a tout à fait raison. Dans l’exemple tiré du journal que vous présentez, on “rompt” les règles que je vous ai proposées: on utilise l’imparfait pour une action principale qui est présenté comme en train de se dérouler. Comme votre interlocuteur indique, c’est un usage littéraire.
L’imparfait “300.000 soldats mouraient” sous-entend que: “ils étaient en train de mourir pendant que …/ They were dying while …” donc l’interlocuteur pense que la phrase n’est pas terminée, et qu’il va se passer quelque chose
Alors que si l’action est finie, le sujet principale est la mort des soldats, on dira plutôt. " Les soldats sont morts."
“Il y a eu 300.000 morts a la bataille de Verdun” ou “La bataille de Verdun causa 300.000 morts”, “La bataille de Verdun ou 300.000 soldats sont morts”, “La bataille de Verdun ou 300.000 soldats ont trouvés la mort”
I don’t really think about it much but it seems that the use of the imperfect or the past continuous in English is quite similar to usage in French. What throws you off is the way certain verbs, 16 if I remember from school over 55 years ago, take être to form the past tense. So it appears that there is no difference in certain cases between “are dead” and “died” or “were born and are born” or “are descended” and “went down” etc… Just have to get used to it.
I googled the 16 verbs that take etre and got the list.
aller to go
arriver to arrive
descendre to descend / go downstairs
(redescendre to descend again)
entrer to enter
(rentrer to re-enter)
monter to climb
(remonter to climb again)
mourir to die
naître to be born
(renaître to be reborn, born again)
partir to leave
(repartir to leave again)
passer to pass
rester to stay
retourner to return
sortir to go out
(ressortir to go out again)
tomber to fall
(retomber to fall again)
venir to come
(devenir to become
parvenir to reach, achieve
revenir to come again, come back)
