The world is full of people with different personalities. I know that Friedemann can be quite persistent. He is alert and interested in many aspects of the world we all live in. He is always asking, probing and exploring. I can understand that he does not understand indifference. We have disagreed in the past at my blog and here on this forum, but enjoyed a great dinner together in Suzhou. I think we both respect each other's sincerity.

Benny is doing a great thing by traveling and exploring China, its language and culture. It is something that he will have with him all his life. I respect him for his language restlessness, and his spirit of discovery. One day he will learn to treat people with more respect, and he will get more respect back.

Thank you Steve, that's very kind of you!

Note that I find Friedemann's pestering to deserve no respect whatsoever. He's spammed me in every form he can despite repeated requests on my part for him to cease. Friedemann would do well to respect MY requests for him to leave me alone. I've asked him dozens of times and it isn't getting through to him. Constantly posting about me in forums I don't read is one thing, but spamming me directly through so many of MY channels, despite me constantly asking him to cut it out is harassment. This despicable behaviour deserves no respect whatsoever.

If anyone here would ever have one person nag them at the level Friedemann has done of me, they'd understand where I'm coming from here. If I knock on your door and you tell me to go away, and then I call you and you tell me to go away, and then I send you text message and leave notes to you, and you tell me to stop it, and I STILL don't get it that perhaps I'm being nothing but an unwelcome nuisance, this is not the same as me talking about you behind your back. Friedemann has being doing the digital version of this.

As a side note, I'd be happy to lift bans from anyone who requests it (apart from Friedemann, fourteen strikes and your out!), as long as they assure me they'll stay on topic in future, and perhaps leave a topic be if I suggest that I really do not want to discuss it any more. Endless off topic tangents on my Youtube page or comments on my blog, irrelevant to the theme at hand, are what drive me crazy. If it's respectful and on topic I will never ban anyone. If this limitation and (in my opinion) fair request is not too unreasonable Steve, I'd be very happy to welcome your comments in future.

Despite arguments we have had, I do respect you and really really hope we can clear the air and get along together some day.

Benny,

I commented some five times on your Facebook site and on this one single thread on your forum (http://tinyurl.com/87qg5tr), that's all! I never commented on Youtube or your other sites. Stop these rediculous lies. I praised your passion and the professionalism behind your blog on many occasions, but it seems you never see that.

I reckon Benny has lost a lot of readers following his loud claims he would be at a certain level in Mandarin after three months which he then did not achieve. So that a lot of people lost interest in him (which he hates). And now he is trying to get attention again (also on this site) so that he can present website traffic figures that proves he is being talked about again. This presumably creates some sort of revenue for him or at leat serves to feed his craving attention so often associated with NPD.

The aggressive tone is part of his ploy to get attention by the way so that will not stop.

I hope someday we might see that second discussion between Benny and Steve that was meant to take place.

Benny,

as a proof that I am not mean or anything please read the following:

When I first heard from you I had just arrived in China and I saw everything you said from the perspective of a Chinese learner. From my own experience this speaking from day one approach just did not make any sense at least from my experience with Chinese. I am sure that you would have to agree by now that learning Chinese also requires some more traditional learning methods such as listening and reading, like you have done yourself in Taiwan. I understand from your last blog post that immersion and daily conversing alone in fact does not guarantee quick progress.

The other main difference we had was your "aim high" approach. To me it is much better to be realistic at the outset. I believe if I aim too high and never reach the goal I set out to reach I will be disappointed.

Pointing out the difficulties in learning Chinese was not meant to discourage you but to put your stated goals in perspective. Learning Chinese is a great adventure but we should not expect to progress as fast as we would in French or Italian (as someone from westen Europe). You know by now how challenging developing good comprehension is. Switch on any Chinese TV program and you'll know. If I want to climb Mount Everest I don't tell myself it will be a walk in the park.

Yes, I'd also be interested in a new video/audio interview by Steve with Benny as his guest, ideally if questions can be submitted to Steve before that.

I like Benny's travel videos, travel reports and experiences. Sometimes I agree with his language learning advice. Sometimes I envy him leading such an interesting life.

But I stopped reading his blog, and stopped subscribing to his newsletter. The reason was mostly his Chinese C1 mission in 3 months. This claim (or call it an "high" aim) had put me off.

I am a quite experienced Chinese learner (see me website about decomposing and analyzing the most important Chinese characters, in German: http://tinyurl.com/taeglich1 ). From my own experience such a "Chinese C1 in 3 months" claim is completely ridiculous. There are so many people blogging posts like "Why Chinese is easy", "Chinese is easier than you think" and so on. I am tired of reading such posts. Chinese IS a quite DIFFICULT language. PERIOD.

If Benny would stop publishing such "aim high" mission claims he would probably have less controversial discussions, less website traffic, less readers, maybe less income (?), but higher credibility, better karma, ... and I will probably return ...

In his last blog post, Benny wrote: "I’ve had plenty passive language exposure over the last 6 weeks here in China, but I’ve actually made very little progress with my Chinese. " - More of this, Benny!

In contrary, the post "What makes learning Polish so easy?" is a good example if those posts I am tired of reading, see above.

I really should restrain myself from butting in here with a change of topic (or perhaps return to a previous sub-topic), but as no doubt many of you have noticed I am quite a Khatzumoto fan. One of his central ideas is that languages are actually quite easy when thought about and approached in a certain way. By this it is meant that becoming competent requires the investment of -huge- amounts of time, but if you are able to make certain changes of attitude and methodology then what from one perspective seemed gruelingly hard now becomes simply the reality you are living and adapting too, and mostly enjoyably.

Khatz gets a lot of flak on the koohii forums from people who read his ideas quite superficially and get the wrong end of the stick. I think one of the things which roils them up the most is misunderstanding what he says when he claims that Japanese (or any language for that matter) is easy. It appears to them to be the height of arrogance, if not just plain deception, to make such claims.

Now that I am learning German I can certainly attest that it is much easier (in the sense of requiring less time) to adjust to the language than Japanese. After only a few hundred hours of study I am already moving into intermediate and enjoying authentic content. So, I am very happy to agree that for a European, learning another European language is going to be relatively more straightforward than learning Japanese (or Chinese).

However, I think it is necessary for us all to realize how -pessimistic- many people are, including academics, and advanced students, when it comes to the question ever being able to reach a high level of Chinese. Just take a look at this...

http://pinyin.info/readings/texts/moser.html

This is a classic example of analyzing something, finding the analysis complex, and then thinking the thing itself is impossible. Human beings are capable of acquiring extremely complex skills without all that analysis and struggle.To point that out is not to denigrate the skill being studied or to say that it is not complex, it is to point out that analysis and acquirement are different kinds of things (Luca points this out here http://thepolyglotdream.com/2012/02/28/studying... but it is nothing Steve hasn't also discussed at length).

The point I want to make is that there exists out there a camp of people who - perhaps bitter because they have broken their own sword with poor methodology and over analysis - are extremely negative and pessimistic about the ability of people to learn Chinese (many languages really but especially Chinese). Their own failure is covered by shifting the blame to the language itself. Online proponents of non-traditional language learning, like Steve, Luca, Khatzumoto, and, yes, even Benny, can be seen as taking a stance against this pessimism and arguing for a return to reality and demystification.

I think what can then happen when you have the emergence of 'camps' is that people can start reading into your statements what you are not actually stating. For example, on one end you have people thinking the proponents of more direct language acquisition rather than language study are hacks/snake oil salesmen, etc., who are disrespecting the language. How could you say Chinese is 'easy' after spending thousands of hours of study and still barely getting it? Outrageous! On the other end simply stating that a language is not going to be learned overnight might be interpreted as the tired old complains of a 'chinese is impossible' camp member, for example with the exchange between Benny and Friedmann above.

Myself, I could if I wanted make the claim that it took me some 'nine years' of study to become fluent in Japanese. However the reality was that the greatest growth occurred in a single year of near full immersion. When it comes to Chinese therefore I feel quite relaxed about the idea of studying it, and very confident that I can learn it with low stress over a few years if I can devote most of my daily time. A few months though? No. I don't think so! ^^

Danchan, many good points there,

All I can say from my own personal experience of learning Chinese is that it took much much more effort and much more time compared with all other foreign languages I had learned before. That doesn't mean it is impossible to achieve high degree of proficiency in Chinese but I found it impossible to get as far in Chinese in the same time as I did in all these other languages.

It is not a difficult task per se, you just need to absorb a large number of patterns, words and sounds. All these sounds need to settle real well in order to deal with all these near homophones in Chinese. I don't think you get more people to learn Japanese and Chinese by telling them it can be done quickly and without putting in many many hours. You can tell them about the fascinating Chinese script and its beauty, about the rich Chinese culture, that might motivate them. But just saying it will be no more difficult than say for a German to learn Italian is just dishonest.

Many people point to the simpler Chinese grammar as a reason why learning Chinese is simple. Well, if it is so simple then listen to Chinese talk and tell me what they said. Watch a movie and tell me what they said. This grammar argument is very superficial and the apparent simplicity in the structure of the language is very deceptive.

@ Friedemann :
I think you didn't understand something very simple :
www.fluentin3months.com is the property of Benny Lewis.
If he tells you "go away", for whatever reason, you just have to go away. The reason why is not important.
He banned you because he wanted to. This is his right.
In fact, he can do and say (almost) whatever he wants.

@ Danchan :
"Mental masturbation" is not vulgar for me. We have exactly the same expression in French, and I use it sometimes when somebody is "excessively theoretical".
But, as a non-native English speaker, maybe I don't "feel" the vulgarity of this expression.


About his "Chinese Mission", I think that a lot of people misunderstood the expression "I'm gonna aim for C1" (dixit Benny Lewis).
Benny did not say that he WILL speak Chinese at a C1 level after 3 months, he said that it will be his GOAL.
This is a nuance that a lot of people fail to understand. Strange..........

Caribou,

he can of course ban whoever he wants but he should not spread lies about me spamming him, which I never did!

What is the point of setting goals that any reasonable person knows are unattainable?

@JuJu: "...Friedemann...If he tells you "go away", for whatever reason, you just have to go away. The reason why is not important. He banned you because he wanted to. This is his right."
-----

Absolutely. But at the same time he still wants a right to come HERE making remarks which are (as Friedemann has shown) at least partly incorrect and untrue.

-----
@JuJu: "...Benny did not say that he WILL speak Chinese at a C1 level after 3 months, he said that it will be his GOAL. This is a nuance that a lot of people fail to understand. Strange."
-----

Buy these magic get-ripped pills for $60.00!

Using them your GOAL will be to turn into Mr Universe in three months without going to the gym. Of course you wont actually BE Mr Universe - it will just be your GOAL.

You think I'm a con artist for selling these pills? How strange!

(Tongue in cheek, but perhaps not entirely...)

@CaptainAmerica

Very artistic. Do you have one for keyboard conmen too? ;-)

"Benny did not say that he WILL speak Chinese at a C1 level after 3 months, he said that it will be his GOAL.
This is a nuance that a lot of people fail to understand. Strange.........."

@JuJu:

From http://www.fluentin3months.com/mandarin-mission/
posted by Benny on Jan. 4 2012

"... I’m currently in Taipei, Taiwan, and this is day one of my mission to speak fluent Mandarin in 3 months!
That’s fluency as in being able to do most of what I can do in English, in social situations in Mandarin. I’ll still make some mistakes, but I won’t hold up the flow of conversations (on either my side or the person I’m talking to) i.e. conversational fluency rather than professional level fluency. (Or something along the lines of level C1, specifically for the oral component of the European Common Framework of languages testing system, although I don’t plan to sit any tests this time). ..."

This is clearly not a goal because he writes "I WILL".

HE WRITES "I WILL SPEAK IN A "fluency as in being able to do most of what I can do in English" (even better than C1 ;-)

NOT "I AM AIMING ... I AM PLANNING ..."

@ JayB :
Very interesting comparison between languages and bodybuilding.
The thing is that Arnold Schwarzenegger had EXACTLY the same mindset as Benny !
When he was practicing his curls, he imagined that his arms were very high mountains ! Totally unrealistic, but it worked rather well.......... ;-)

I have the Benny's book (from a friend who bought it). Nothing interesting and not worth the price in MY opinion, but maybe it is different for other people. Maybe this book helped some people : we have to respect that.

@ Friedmann :
I don't like the word "spamming", because it is not clearly defined : everybody has a different definition.
Benny categorized your comments like "spamming". This is just a matter of sensibility, I think.

On the other hand, spreading lies intentionally is totally unfair !
I am on your side about this !

@ hape :
If I understand correctly.......

01/04/2012 : I will do it, there is no problem, I will do it, I will do it !!!!
04/04/2012 : mmmm...... Ok..... I did not do it......... So what ????

This doesn't bother me. What about you ?

About the "I WILL speak Chinese at a C1 level" :
I have only watched the 1st video of his mission, not the post. He clearly say : "I'm gonna AIM for C1".

START: I will do it, there is no problem, I will do it, I will do it !!!!
END: Mmmm...... Ok..... I did not do it......... So what ????

This happened several times in Benny's blog.
His German mission http://www.fluentin3months.com/german-mission/ had a fun component:

"The more fun part of this mission will be something similar to what I achieved with my Portuguese in Rio; I want to meet a native for the first time and talk to them, and have them genuinely and honestly think that I’m also German for up to 30 seconds.

At the end of this German mission, this meeting never happened:

"What about the accent part of the mission? Well, since I was focused so much on the exam, my spoken German suffered and, despite speaking very well, I still definitely have an accent. I could actually eliminate the main foreign aspects of my accent in my last two weeks with some intensive work, but I have worked very hard recently and need a break – so I will not be pursuing the accent reduction part of the mission. "

What's more, there is still no proof (video) completely in German (look at "languages I speak") on his website, although he considers his German fluent (= about 90-95% “perfect” in his own words). I doubt that.

@Hape

So Benny claims that he fooled a native of Rio for 30 seconds into thinking that he (Benny) was a fellow native speaker of Portuguese?

What was he doing for these 30 seconds? Yodling...?

@ hape :
I agree with you : Benny fails often, maybe all the time in fact.

But, like him, I prefer to aim for C1 and fail at B1 than to aim for A2 and succeed at A2.

@JayB :
"What was he doing for these 30 seconds? Yodling...?"

LOL !!

Seriously : if you have 3 months to prepare those 30 seconds, don't you think you can not fool a native speaker of whatever language ??? I think I can do it.......

"I think I can"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_det...

I think the reason Benny won't admit that Mandarin is difficult is because he's talking about casual conversational Mandarin. And I also believe that that isn't so difficult.

On the other hand, watching tv, reading a book etc. is super difficult.

(During his video with the kung fu bloke he's constantly making some grunting sounds as if he understands. My Chinese must be hopeless because I have real trouble picking up anything he says... though I do admit than live speech, face to face it much much easier. For the average viewer Benny must come across as a genius to be able to understand this bloke after a few months study. Perhaps he does, perhaps he is...)

In any case... in order for anyone to admit to the difficulty or not of Mandarin I suggest that the type of Mandarin needs to be determined. Asking for something in a shop - as easy or easier than Russian... understanding a tv program... much more difficult. (in my opinion mostly due to the lack of differing sounds)

As for all the tricky grammar and thousands of expressions, things like that... how can Benny appreciate the difficulty of such things if he's at a beginner level and hasn't come across this sort of thing?

(how many grammatical points in English are as difficult to explain as the use of 了?)

the 30 second thing? that must be a joke. I can't imagine any foreign, adult learner of English speaking to me, non-stop for 30 seconds and me not realising that he/she is not a native speaker.

This is more like a party trick than a serious language exercise. Oh... actually it's also a language family thing too I suppose. English is different enough from continental European languages that the accent will show up. Slavs speaking other Slavic languages... hmmm perhaps that's possible.

In any case it's number one an accent thing. It would demonstrate a remarkable ability to mimic an appropriate accent. It's not something I'd be setting as a goal for beginning language learners if I had such a blog.

I also have to wonder... how come he's left all thoughts of sounding like a native-speaker behind with his Mandarin mission... oh... perhaps it's too difficult?

@ Hape - you are correct. If you are talking about an aim, you would not write "I will". You would express it something like "I should be able to", "I am hoping to", "my aim is" - at least that is how you would express it if you were running a business and talking about business goals. And he is running a business isn't he?