Мнение меньшинства в России - Minority opinion in Russia

Evgueny has uploaded some interesting lessons presenting the dominant Russian view of events in Ukraine.

Putin referred to those who oppose his Ukrainian policies as “fifth columnists”. Echo Moskvi is high on the list of “enemy” media in Russia. Here are some interesting interviews, mostly, but not only, with people who oppose Putin’s Ukrainian policies. Freedom of expression still exists in Russia, even if limited by the government’s control of most of the media and their recent crackdowns on the expression of dissident views.

Here is a new Russian course for intermediate and advanced learners consisting of interviews from Echo Moskvi. The first few lessons include an interview with Andrei Zubov who was fired from university for pointing out similarities between the annexation of Crimea and the annexation of the Sudetenland by Hitler in 1938, as well as an interesting interview with Mikhail Dobkin, candidate for the Party of Regions (party of Yanukovich) in the upcoming presidential election in Ukraine, and more.

I will add more if there is interest.

Steve`s said: “Freedom of expression still exists in Russia”.

Im living in Russia and its really FUNNY to continuously hear that “Freedom of expression” is seemingly tightened in Russia.
It is a great delusion.
Here you can say what you think and you can hear a very wide range of opinions.
Эхо Москвы is a real example. They just work as many other opposition and dissident media.

The other point is that people here - overwhelming majority by 80 percent - is supported Putin.

sdom, I am a rebel by nature. I oppose conventional wisdom and politically correct thought whenever I can. If 80% of Russians support Putin, I respect the other 20%. Thus I follow Echo Moskvi and Telecanal dozhd. I am well aware the Echo Moskvi deliberately provides a floor for sensationalist opinion ranging from anti-Putin people, to the Imperialist Prokhanov, to Limonov, to Zhirinovsky and on and on. It is like a Hyde Park online.

I also agree with you that most people in the West are not aware that people in Russia can freely criticize Putin,as they do at Echo Moskvi. Russia is not China.

However, there is a limited space for freedom of expression in Russia, and that space is getting smaller. As long as Putin does not consider you influential or a threat, you can say what you want. But there is a limit.

When the President calls dissidents “traitors” and “fifth columnists” that does not encourage tolerance of different views. I find many Russians are very intolerant of dissenting views. That is why I respect people who dare to be different, like Professor Zubov or the 50,000 people who demonstrated in Moscow against Russia’s actions in Crimea.

Some recent news items which make observers feel that freedom of expression is under attack.

"A 75-year-old survivor of the Nazi siege of Leningrad was fined 10,000 rubles ($275) for attending an anti-war rally and holding a sign that read “Peace to the World”, while a pro-Kremlin lawmaker reportedly called him a supporter of “fascism.”

“A Russian prosecutor demanded prison terms of between five and six years for eight demonstrators charged with mass disorder at a protest in 2012 against President Vladimir Putin,”

“The longtime editor-in-chief of news agency Lenta.ru has been replaced by the former editor of a Kremlin-friendly online publication, prompting an uproar among many journalists who say the move is just the latest nail in the coffin of Russia’s independent media.”

"Russian radio station Ekho Moskvy said Friday it has blocked access to a blog written for its website by anti-Kremlin activist Alexei Navalny on orders from Russian prosecutors, hours after the state telecom watchdog blacklisted the opposition figure’s LiveJournal blog. "

@Steve: “…I am a rebel by nature. I oppose conventional wisdom and politically correct thought whenever I can. If 80% of Russians support Putin, I respect the other 20%…”

Cuts both ways, Steve. What is the ratio of bias in Western media? Surely at least 90:10 against Putin?

Some of the stuff I have seen from the BBC is sheer bigotry: “discussions” which involve two or more blatant Russophobes, with no effort at all to present the Russian point of view, no challenge or scrutiny from presenters, casual distortion of historical fact - and not only from guests but from presenters too.

(For example I saw one such “discussion” where the presenter casually threw in a remark about Germany being continually threatened by Russia “for the last 100 years”. When you consider the sheer human cost of Hitler’s assault on the Soviet Union, and the foul racist motivations behind it, remarks such as this make me want to throw up.)


@Steve: “…most people in the West are not aware that people in Russia can freely criticize Putin,as they do at Echo Moskvi. Russia is not China…”

Right. But here again we can see a massive double standard in the attitudes of Western media. Coverage of China is almost entirely positive in tone.

I say: where there are double standards there is insincerity. If censorship and crushing political opposition is shocking and bad in country A, why would it be a matter of indifference in country B?

Could it be that there is an ulterior animus (racial or otherwise) against country A?

And it’s also intererstring to compare the freedom of speech in Russia with Ukraine.
There is no voices in the Ukrinian Mass Media who are against the new government in Kiev - all jourmalists who had another point of view are expelled from TV and Radio station.
Moreover their lives are often in danger because of the massive arrests of people who support the Russian position.
I can see some Ukrainian TV on the computer - it’s lie, lie and lie!
It’s lie about the hundreds of the families who leavew Crimea, it’s lie about Russian troops which are ready to invade into Ukraine, it’s lie about the Russian agentsd in the East. But it’s true that the leaders of ‘anti-maydan’ in the East and the South of Ukraine are arrested and nobody knows their fate.
And I think this hysteria will continue up to the Mai election in order to receive more voices on the wave of the fear of Russia.

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I am a rebel by nature

This statement, especially after the Prinz_Wladimir’s remark reminds me of an old joke. I don’t know for sure if it’s originally Soviet or American, but Regan reportedly liked or even authored it: http://www.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/1cwwsn/reagans_soviet_joke/

Evgueny, I imagine that the news from Ukraine is not always accurate or objective, and that many of the actions of the present government are excessive or unfair. They are in a very difficult situation, trying to hold their country together while trying to rid the country of armed groups, including the Right Sector, and under attack from Russia who has taken a portion of their country and is poised with troops on their border while unleashing a massive propaganda attack against the government calling it Fascist etc. I understand a majority of Russians would support an invasion of Ukraine according to recent polls.

Russia is under no such pressure.

I suggest you watch ShusterLive. Mar 31 for an hour long interview with Mikhail Dobkin the Party of Regions presidential candidate, a proponent of federalism, (for which he is under house arrest!!) a member of Yanukovich’s party, very much of the pro-Russian group, or April 4 when Dobkin is again featured, and we see a number of different points of view as Avakov lays out the evidence about sniper attackes. We even see one of the accused responsible for organizing systematic attacks on Maidan activitists , defending himself by telephone from Russia where he is in hiding. All on one of the most popular news programs in Ukraine. I doubt that this could happen in Russia,on prime time national television.

Pro-Russian demonstrators stormed government buildings in Donetsk today replacing the Ukrainian flag with a Russian, similar demonstrations in Kharkiv. I can understand that the Kiev government is concerned and arresting a few folk. But can you give some examples of “mass arrests” of people who support the Russian position, and what exactly do you mean by the Russian position?

How do you know that there are not hundreds of families who have left Crimea? We know that the Russian TV claims of 600,000 refugees fleeing Russia were false because the TV showed a Polish border station claiming it was the Russian border, and Russian officials in regions near Ukrainian border reported no refugees. Do you have some proof that no Ukrainians or Tatars have left Crimea since the Russian takeover?

How do you know there are no Russian agents in Eastern Ukraine? I have seen a picture of a person from St.Petersburg raising a Russian flag on a Ukrainian government building in Donetsk. He posted it on his Facebook page.

The whole world knows about Russian troops massing on the Ukraine border, where is the lie? And Putin has permission from the Duma to attack Ukraine. Yes he said he won’t attack, but he also said he had no intention of taking the Crimea. We don’t know his intentions.

When you refer to people from East Ukraine who have disappeared, do you mean Pavel Gubarev who led pro-Russian protesters who blockaded and occupied the Donetsk Regional State Administration building. Who exactly?

How do you know there are no Russian agents in Eastern Ukraine? I have seen a picture of a person from St.Petersburg raising a Russian flag on a Ukrainian government building in Donetsk. He posted it on his Facebook page.

There probably are, as there are in any country more or less of significance for us. But I don’t think you can be serious about this certain idiot being someone’s agent =)

I agree eugrus. The guy in question also has pictures of himself in a Nazi uniform on his website page. I am sure there are a number of hot heads like him from Russia, taking part in the actions in Eastern Ukraine. These are unlikely to be agents.

However, it is quite likely that Russian officials are in touch with people in Eastern and Southern Ukraine, at various levels, from street action to local political leaders. I would imagine they would like to influence events there by whatever means they have.

BTW, it seems very strange to me that Yanukovich didn’t make a stand in Eastern Ukraine. Given that this is his support base, why didn’t he set up a shop there and fight the “illegitimate” government in Kiev. He still controlled the army and police, at lest locally, and would, I imagine, had the support of many people there. Instead he fled to Russia. Strange.

I would imagine they would like to influence events there by whatever means they have.

I think this country is too close to us (in any possible meaning) to do it by whatever means we have. As I would imagine, for politicians from other places in the world it would be easier to instrumentalise whatever they can, since for most of them the Ukraine itself is nothing more than an instrument.

Yanukovich has made a lot of mistakes, but at least he doesn’t want to have a civil war in Ukraine, that’s why he hasn’t appear in the East Ukraine.
If the agends of the Russian army really helped Yanukovich in December when ‘Molotov-coctails’ started to be thrown, the Maidan would be cleaned during 2-3 hours.
The ‘peaceful’ protesters and the armed nationalists are two big differences. He had to fight actively against the nationalist groups, it was his responsibility to bring order in Kiev and in the country…
Yanukovich was too timid and he believed too naively to the western ‘peace-makers’ - and that’s why he was overthrown.
You deon’t believe in Russian TV, and I don’t believe in Ukrainian TV because it’s a anti-Russian propaganda and because the Kiev stopped all Russian TV channels - and the Ukrainian have no other opinions.
And maybe, Steve, you noticed that no person from Ukraine had taken part in our vivid discussion because the are afraid even in our closed forum of giving their opinions!

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eugrus, Russian troops worked ver closely with pro-Russian groups in Crimean and I expect they will do the same in Eastern Ukraine. I don’t understand the term instrumentalise, nor Ukraine as an intrument.

Then those were probably some German calques breaking into my English: Duden | instrumentalisieren | Rechtschreibung, Bedeutung, Definition, Herkunft
=)

@Steve: “A Russian prosecutor demanded prison terms of between five and six years for eight demonstrators charged with mass disorder at a protest in 2012 against President Vladimir Putin,”

Do not you know that peaceful demonstrators charged for violence against policemen? We all can see video in YouTube… In Canada peaceful demonstrators are able to violate? I do not want mass disorders in our streets without penalties.

@Steve: "Russian radio station Ekho Moskvy said Friday it has blocked access to a blog written for its website by anti-Kremlin activist Alexei Navalny on orders from Russian prosecutors, hours after the state telecom watchdog blacklisted the opposition figure’s LiveJournal blog. "

Do not you know that access was blocked for Navalny`s calls for illegal activities and to participate in mass events held with violation of the established procedure? while he was under house arrest…

“Dissident media” do not tell us about such “little things”…

EDIT:

Суд в Кирове 18 июля 2013 года приговорил Алексея Навального к пяти, а его соучастника Петра Офицерова - к четырем годам лишения свободы. С фигурантов дела о хищении имущества КОГУП “Кировлес” солидарно взыскан 1 миллион рублей ущерба.

РИА Новости Приговор Навальному. Реакция и комментарии - последние новости сегодня - РИА Новости

Such a man is opposition leader and dissident? Or just common criminal?

@Sdom

We have to remember that Steve has been following this radio station for several years and has learned a lot of Russian from them. I believe he has even contributed some interviews? I guess he has every reason to admire and be grateful to them. But perhaps we can question his objectivity about their political stance?

It may be that Steve uncritically swallows whatever they say - pretty much like a kid sucking an orange??

(This is a trap we can all quite easily fall into with target language materials, I fear.)

“But perhaps we can question his objectivity about their political stance?”

I think “we” should question everyone´s objectivity about everything. You&Evgueny question Ekho Moskvy all the time, but you seem to be less sceptical about Russia Today. Isn´t “Russia Today” basically “Here´s what Putin wants you to think”-TV?

Personally, I think that pretty much all media is biased/unobjective to a certain degree. That includes western media, by the way. That´s why I find it hard to have on opinion about Russia and the Ukraine. I just don´t know what to think.^^

“It may be that Steve uncritically swallows whatever they say”

“You uncritically swallow what they say” is a pretty cheap argument. Wait, it´s not an argument. It´s just one of these ad hominems that everyone uses against everyone.^^

sdom,

Alexei Navalny, is a vocal opponent of Putin, popular blogger, and candidate for Mayor who got 27% of the vote in the last election for Mayor of Moscow suddenly is accused of embezzlement.

Re banning of Navalny’s blog.

Re 75 year old demonstrator with an anti-war sign who was being violent.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/leningrad-blockade-survivor-arrested-fined-for-anti-war-protest/495842.html

Paule, I know what I think, and I only hope I am wrong.

@Paule: “…You&Evgueny question Ekho Moskvy all the time, but you seem to be less sceptical about Russia Today. Isn´t “Russia Today” basically “Here´s what Putin wants you to think”-TV?..”

Actually I have never mentioned Ekho Moskvy before my last post. And I have never mentioned Russia Today - not even once!


@Paule: “…Personally, I think that pretty much all media is biased/unobjective to a certain degree. That includes western media, by the way. That´s why I find it hard to have on opinion about Russia and the Ukraine. I just don´t know what to think.^^…”

Agreed.


@Paule: “…“You uncritically swallow what they say” is a pretty cheap argument. Wait, it´s not an argument. It´s just one of these ad hominems that everyone uses against everyone.^^…”

What I wrote wasn’t an argument, it was a question.

I said: “…It may be that Steve uncritically swallows whatever they say - pretty much like a kid sucking an orange??..”

But, yeah, the sentiment wasn’t very flattering towards El Stevio. It was, in actual fact, an effort to tweak his nose! :smiley:

BTW

I still wonder (and I’m being 100% serious now!) why people get so hot and bothered about the treatment of anti-government journalists and bloggers in Russia when they are so completely cool and relaxed about the far-worse situation in other countries like China and Saudi Arabia??

And what about Turkey? According to some estimates, they have more journalists in jail than Russia does - and they don’t just ban websites, they want to ban pretty much the whole freaking internet! :-0

Yet I don’t hear people in the Western media bitching continually about Turkey.

Funny that.