What is really happening in Ukraine and Crimea

Friends,

I understand that there are Russians reading this, so I will try to be nice. But, as some of you know, some of the Russians writing on this forum are not trying to be nice.

I live part time outside of Odessa, Ukraine.

I visited Kiev and the Maidan in December and January. I went, because I knew I could not trust western media. And Russian media is no better. So, I went to see for myself.

No one was scared (I was not there during the violence). One friend was there during the violence, she worked as a volunteer nurse during the shootings. Women were not scared to bring their children.

The Maidan was more like a festival than like a protest.

My friends were involved in organizing the Odessa Maidan celebrations.

Now for my observations: Maidan did not scare people. Ukrainians were free to express their opinions.

RUSSIANS frequently visited - there were a lot of Russian TOURISTS there.

BUT, Russians were petrified of having their pictures taken there … I wonder why?

Ukrainians fear (FEAR) the Nationalists. The Nationalists trying to force a Soviet era reset upon Ukraine scares almost everyone in Ukraine.

Do NOT misunderstand, there are TWO nationalist movements. One Ukrainian, the other Russian. The Ukrainian movement has had support from the West. But, there is NO evidence of State sponsored terrorism. The Russian movement has support from Russia, and a lot of people are dead, and there is a lot of destruction.

Ukrainians are not a destructive people - normally.

Ukrainians break down into two groups of people. One group had grand-parents who were Ukrainian. The other group had grand-parents who were Russian.

Both groups see themselves as Ukrainian. Very, Very few see themselves as ‘Soviet.’

If you want to get all of your news from western or Russian sources, great. Just don’t expect me to accept either side’s propaganda.

I live there. And the lives of my friends are at stake.

Wayne

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PS: I regularly get Twitter feed from reporters on the ground.

What the reporters say in their twitter feeds and what my friends tell me agrees about 60% or 70% with what western media reports. What I saw with my own eyes, and heard myself agrees with western media about 70% of the time.

What Russian media reports agrees with what is on the ground about 40% to 50% of the time.

The huge difference?

Almost everyone has told me at some time, they are scared. The reporters. My friends. They are scared of the Russian invasion, and they are scared of the Russian nationalists. And some of the Russian nationalists report that they are not comfortable with the new Russian visitors at the protests.

Wayne

I am not responding for your fair tales about the “peaceful” maidan which was throwing ‘Molotov-coctails’ to the disarmed milicemen, my smiling CIA- friend.
Not me, but God will punish you.
Good-bye, America!

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@ elguero

I’m very pitty, but you are terrible liar.
Evgueny40 is right.

@ elguero

Do you follow the news from Syria?
What do you think about Obamas treats to bring american troops into that country? Do you support the delivery of arms to the Syrian terrorists to fight against the government? May be it will be useful to impose sanction upon Obamas regime to escape American Invasion?

Kiev threatens force against eastern Ukraine protesters

The things are getting worser.

Ukraine’s acting Interior Minister is threatening to resolve “in 48 hours” the situation in eastern regions where administrations of at least two cities are controlled by protesters demanding a nationwide referendum on the state structure.

Arsen Avakov told journalists on Wednesday that the coup-imposed government is ready to use force in the mutinous eastern regions.

"There are two solutions: a political one through negotiations or through force,” the minister said on the margins of a government meeting.

After RT: Kiev threatens force against eastern Ukraine protesters — RT World News

What do LingQers think about using ARMED FORCES against Ukrainian people?

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Ukraine in 48-hour ultimatum to east's pro-Russia activists - BBC News “Ukraine in 48-hour ultimatum to east’s pro-Russia activists”
I’m trying to understand the different power centers in this situation. Each of them have their responsibilities (and world views and backers…).

I think usually it would be quite normal for a country to use force if government buildings are occupied by groups of people. But this is not a normal country we are talking about. Because it seems to me that Ukraine is disintegrating in one way or another (autonomous areas in Ukraine, new countries or parts joining Russia, perhaps satellite states).

If Kiev sends tanks and all to Eastern Ukraine, what will happen will also partly depend how the local folks will respond. And how will Putin try to influence the situation? Will the Russian tanks come ‘save the day’?

BTW the last few days, I’ve been reading the book by the historian Ian Morriss called ‘War - what is it good for? The role of conflict in civilization, from primates to robots.’

War is hell. But what is worse than war? Small gangs filling the power vacuum.

What annoys me that some people seem to depict the situation that small gangs are only Ukrainian nationalists (backed by evil US) or only Russian nationalists (backed by evil Russia). In reality the situation is more complicated than that.

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@B4: “…I think usually it would be quite normal for a country to use force if government buildings are occupied by groups of people. But this is not a normal country we are talking about. Because it seems to me that Ukraine is disintegrating in one way or another (autonomous areas in Ukraine, new countries or parts joining Russia, perhaps satellite states)…”

Yup. A culturally disjointed entity with unsustainable borders arising from a historical quirk - it had to come under severe strain sooner or later, I guess.


@B4: “…If Kiev sends tanks and all to Eastern Ukraine, what will happen will also partly depend how the local folks will respond. And how will Putin try to influence the situation? Will the Russian tanks come ‘save the day’?..”

They would come to save the day - but the situation probably won’t arise. The Kiev government is ultimately a bankrupt proxy for the US-EU. It won’t go against orders - and those orders are surely to avoid provoking or initiating armed conflict with Russia at every cost?

(IMO The bigger risk for war is that irregular fighters from the far-right elements will start a civil war of some kind. That would also give the Russians a legitimate excuse to finish the job militarily - if civilians were getting killed in large numbers.)

Something very similar happened here in Prague in 1968.

I would be interested to hear if our Russian brothers condon that incident too…?

@Ferdy

Actually I don’t believe the two situations are terribly similar. As far as I’m aware, there were not large numbers of people living in Czechoslovakia who identified themselves culturally and linguistically as Russians? (Unlike in parts of the Ukraine today.)

Maybe not in that respect, but in the respect of invading, and suppressing the local community I’d say there’s plenty of similarities.

“Not me, but God will punish you.
Good-bye, America!”

You´re the spokesperson of the creator of the universe, Evgueny? How´d you get that job?
Most americans seem to think that God is on THEIR side…

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Yeah,Paul, some Americans (especially some American politics) are very presumptuous.
Maybe the half of all world crisises and wars happen because of it.
They act like an international policeman.
They impose their will and their values all over the world.
For this aim they spend for their army more money than almost all other countries in the world.
But nothing to do.
And soon or later they will be punished for it.
However, not all Americans are so impudent. (Gott sei Dank!)
Some of them are very nice and friendly.

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Well, if many Russians (including you, it seems) think that God is on Russia´s side, while many Americans think that God is on their side…well…who´s right and who´s wrong?

How can you act like the spokesman of God (“God will punish you”)? Where´s the difference between you and the americans who you´re calling “presumptuous”? One side must be wrong :wink:

“Maybe the half of all world crisises and wars happen because of it.
They act like an international policeman.
They impose their will and their values all over the world.”

My family can tell you about their experiences with the Russian definition of freedom. Most Germans will agree that “having american values imposed on you” was more fun than having Russian values imposed on you. And yes, the division of Germany was Germany´s fault.

The US and Russia/the USSR have treated the rest of the world like a chessboard since WW2 has ended. I´m on neither side. I hope that both Russia and the U.S. will either get weaker or less agressive some day.

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“They impose their will and their values all over the world.
For this aim they spend for their army more money than almost all other countries in the world.”

America spends 682 billion Dollars on their military, but that´s “only” 4,4% of their GDP.
Russia spends 90 billion Dollars on their military, which is 4,4% of their GDP.
Countries like Japan, Germany, Canada, China, and Italy spend less between 1 and 2% on their military.

Relatively speaking, Russia is spending as much money on their military as the U.S.
It´s just that the GDP is 800% higher than Russia´s.^^

If you take a look at the “global militarization index”, Russia is on the 4th most militarized country (Israel is Number One…), while the U.S. is on the 31st place.

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@Paule: “…Well, if many Russians (including you, it seems) think that God is on Russia´s side, while many Americans think that God is on their side…well…who´s right and who´s wrong?..”

God is on the side of peace (and therefore of peace-makers in every nation) in my not-so-humble opinion :slight_smile:


@Paule: “…My family can tell you about their experiences with the Russian definition of freedom. Most Germans will agree that “having american values imposed on you” was more fun than having Russian values imposed on you…”

Mmm…maybe we are talking about ‘Communist values’ vs. ‘Capitalist values’, rather than ‘Russian values’ vs. ‘American values’…?

@ Prinz Wladi "God is on the side of peace (and therefore of peace-makers in every nation) in my not-so-humble opinion :slight_smile:

In that case, history has shown that having God on your side doesn´t help that much :wink:

“Mmm…maybe we are talking about ‘Communist values’ vs. ‘Capitalist values’, rather than ‘Russian values’ vs. ‘American values’…?”

Well, they´re hard to seperate. But you do have a point^^

“…Well, they´re hard to seperate…”

Really? So you would say that Russian values are intrinsically Communist - even today???

No.

I was talking about the occupation of Germany.

I’m English and I was against us backing America in the recent conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. I know we have a tarnished history, from the. colonial days, to the occupation of Ireland, and I’ll freely admit that. What I don’t understand is people who support their country whatever. Russia has imposed itself since WW2 and yet not one Russian I’ve met will admit it. American is just as bad, but at least some of them are man (or woman) enough to oppose it.

It is only when we release that it not us against them, it’s not our God against their God, it’s not East against West. It’s simple right against wrong. Choose what is right, not the crap you were indocrinated with as a child.

PS. There is no God. But that’s another topic :wink:

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