Steve has also said many times that he wishes Benny success in learning Chinese. I don't think anybody here is hoping Benny will fail at learning Chinese.

@nathanael1971
"One thing I do notice is the well know polyglots aren't saying much of a peep about our Irish friends missions and whether there are do able or not. "

If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably not important to them either way. A lot of time is spent hand-wringing over the guy in various forums, when in reality, he probably just doesn't matter to the "well-known" polyglots, who - I don't think - are Benny's target audience anyway.

R.
==

"Of all of them, Steve seems to stand out and has no problem saying whats on his mind. I doubt you would get a direct honest answer from the other guys on the subject. I for one would like Benny to accomplish as much as possible and succeed. I always like to root for people and am happy for them when they accomplish there goals."

Quoting my own quote, lol. All I meant was Steve is out spoken, the subject was brought up on his forum, so he commented on you tube and shared his opinion as to what he thought could be accomplished in 3 months, which bothered Benny.

Steve thought achieving or aiming for C1 level of Mandarin in 3 months, for a native English speaker wasn't going to happen and thought he could make maybe A2 or B1. I'm fully aware of Steve's attitude on encouraging others to learn and succeed he just didn't feel Benny had a realistic view, which was perceived as negative and discouraging to Benny. Both guys have there learning styles for what works for them. What works for Steve, wouldn't work for Ben and vice verse.

To be quite frank, I've never read Benny's book and his methods seem kind of a secret, other than the obvious speak from day one, to real people and as to Steve he's very vocal about what works for him. There both selling products, Steve wants you to go to linkQ and Benny wants you to buy his book, which may or may not be worth it. I've heard some of Benny's approaches, like using music, which I really like. But I lean more towards Steves methods of learning as I live in Canada and am in no hurry to be speaking well in the language early.

If your in the country and you need to be conversational immediately, then I'm sure his book would have some good advice. No site is perfect IMO, you need more than one tool, people, books, internet etc, but lingQ is the best site I've come across yet.

That I can also agree with :-) LingQ is the best single language learning resource I've come across. It's not perfect, and it's the not the only tool I use, but it's the best one.

@Nathanael1971: "...LOL @ sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander, must be a British thing."
-----

In Britain you can say either "what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" or "what's good for the goose is good for the gander". I would guess the former is the more usual variant here. (I believe I have heard it in America too?)

Anyway, my point was that Donovan can't really accuse folks of being "childish" for writing hostile things about Benny if he has done the exact same himself (albeit only in a couple of posts.)

"What's good for Donovan is good for everyone else"...as it were... :-)

Maybe Donovan is copying the Irish "Polyglot's" PR tricks?

@ Mariann10 :
"Maybe Donovan is copying the Irish "Polyglot's" PR tricks?"

I hope not ! His website is very well done....

@JayB
"In Britain you can say either "what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander" or "what's good for the goose is good for the gander". I would guess the former is the more usual variant here. (I believe I have heard it in America too?) "

Interestingly enough, last night this exact phrase was highlighted in the Rachel Maddow show on MSNBC (Mitt Romney had used the "sauce" variety in a speech he'd given, and they were reporting on it).

I've heard both versions, but, as they'd pointed out in the show, the "sauce" variety is considered archaic here in the US. My grandmother used to use "sauce" while my generation uses "good", for what it's worth.

R.
==

@nathanael1971 "To be quite frank, I've never read Benny's book and his methods seem kind of a secret, other than the obvious speak from day one..."
I've read his guide and "his methods" are certainly "top secret - shh shh"!! but wait, he published them on HTLAL forum (30 May 2012):

=====
@irishpolyglot
When you meet as many expats as I have the "method" is very simple: stop speaking your mother tongue so much. That's it.

There are memory methods, learning material methods etc., but nothing beats actual real life pressure.

Immersion is a lifestyle, not a method. But if it really needs to have the "method" layout then here you go:
Step 1: Stop speaking your mother tongue all the time and use the target language in as many ways as you can. Study it to improve between actual use sessions.
Step 2: Repeat step 1.
=====

@ Friedemann, I know it's somewhat off topic, but a few pages ago you wrote that Luca's German sounded near-native to you. What do you think of Richard's German accent?

rwargas22,

in his 16 languages video he says one sentence in German and in this one sentence he would (almost) fool me to believe he is German. I'll see whether there are more German videos of his.

Couldn't find anything, but I have to say that in all his languages he sounds incredibly authentic, what an inspirational, humble and likable human being. Kudos to Richard!

>Couldn't find anything

This one is certainly the best to evaluate his German:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agnAAflBymg

Let me start out by saying that he is phenomenal. His pronounciation is great, his grammar is very good. There are a few things in there that did not sound 100% authentic though and I am sure when I'd discuss different topics with him that are not related to his pet topic, language learning, I am sure I would notice that he is not a native speaker. Having said that, he is truly phenomenal. Again, kudos to Richard.

He is so good, at least in this video, that it is only rather elusive things that seem to give him away and I cannot even say exactly what it is. He is very very close to native in this video, I'd say.

Just for the fun of it, here are some of the very few a bit unnatural sounding bits in his video:

- 0:05: "ich bin der Richard" - better would be: "Ich bin/heisse Richard", use of the article sounds a bit unnatural
- 0:11: "glücklicherweie nach dem Studium habe ich die Möglichkeit gehabt..." - better would be "Nach dem Studium habe ich glücklicherweise die Möglichkeit gehabt..."
- 0:25: "...habe ich 8 Stunden am Tag studiert..." more natural I think would be "...habe ich 8 Stunden gelernt..."


These are all very minor things and there are no grammar mistakes there, but they sound a little bit unnatural and which finally give him away. Still, he is great and I'd say most people having come to German as teenagers or adults and even after having lived there for 20+ years won't speak as well as he does.

@Friedemann: "...I'd say most people having come to German as teenagers or adults and even after having lived there for 20+ years won't speak as well as he does."
-----

Hmm...if a guy went to live in a foreign country aged 13 or 14 and then carried on living there for the next 20 years and more (school, university, career, marriage, etc) then that person would surely be 99.99% native level, wouldn't he?

Unfortunately I have many examples that suggest otherwise.

JayB - I would agree that if you go through uni and also marry a native as you suggest, you would be as good as a native after x years. It is possible though that many foreigners in Germany end up mixing with their own people and end up marrying non-Germans. I know many Russians in Germany in this situation.

It is a very interesting question. I have a colleague in my company in Germany, an engineer who came to Germany from Africa at the age of 15, went to school and university in Germany and speaks relatively poor German after 20 years in the country. Another colleague, a Chinese came after school to study at a German university, his German is excellent. Maybe some people are just not bothered by their poor level in a second language, I really don't know.

No teenager immigrant will ever be like a native, close but anyone who pays attention and spend a good deal of time with them, will know there not a native.

Time really isn't the issue IMO. 1, 5, 10 or 20 years, the real issue is continually trying to improve. Almost all immigrants I see get to a level which they can communicate and just seem to plateau and not care. Most of them aren't even aware of how bad they come across to natives. They speak too much in there mother tongue, never seem to want constructive feedback, get a tutor, study grammar etc. Most of it is either lack of awareness and pride.

On some days, mostly in big cities, you'll hear a lot more Turkish or Russian or other foreign languages than German, plus a lot of badly spoken German, in German streets or shops. It's no surprise, as one in five Germans has an immigrant background, and many don't speak perfect German, as it's a difficult language. So, if you come to Germany and your German is not perfect, you are in good company, and most people are used to it. No need to be perfect!

On the flipside, how good is the English of the average German who lives in Germany? Could one expect it to be as good as yours (Friedemann and hape)? Could you have a reasonably wide-ranging conversation in English with someone on the street and have them participate quite comfortably?

I know this is more or less an impossible question to answer, since "someone on the street" could be anyone, including someone who lived in the UK for several years. What I'm trying to get at is what to expect when I finally go there, particularly among the younger age groups (20's and 30's).

Most young people can speak English, but IMHO only those who have finished German high school (with the "Abitur" - the general qualification for university entrance) can do "wide-ranging conversations" in English (and/or French if they have learned it).

Nathaniel wrote
"Almost all immigrants I see get to a level which they can communicate and just seem to plateau and not care. Most of them aren't even aware of how bad they come across to natives."

I think this could have been phrased more constructively. If I were an immigrant coming to your country, you would not make me feel very welcome or perhaps that was your intent.

"So, if you come to Germany and your German is not perfect, you are in good company, and most people are used to it. No need to be perfect! "

I somewhat disagree with Hape on this one. I do think that people moving to Germany or any country for that matter shoud work harder on their language skills. I have lived abroad twice in my life and was as demanding of myself.

I came across someone on the internet recently, some sort of English speaker I gather, lives in Kazakhstan and has been living there for three years already, works for the airline (but not flying staff), reckons he can barely order a beer in Russian.

It's a mystery to me how people can live like that.