Second Language Acquisition - Method used on LingQ

Open Forum
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I’m interested in hearing people’s views on Stephen Krashen’s “Second Language Acquisition” theory, which I’m presuming is somewhat similar to the method used by Steve and people using LingQ. For my first “second language”, I used the traditional exercise book approach, learning how to order train tickets, and answering lots of grammar questions etc… Although in the end, I obtained a good grasp of the grammar and a fairly large vocabularly, I still couldn’t produce anything at speed, because my mind was constantly looking-up words and grammars rules. I’ve since gone back to the drawing board, and instead I’m using Steve/Stephen Krashen’s method.

Since my target language isn’t yet on LingQ, I’m using whatever input I can find on the Internet. At the moment, I’m reading and listening to Harry Potter, watching TV and reading discussions in forums. I’m making sure that what I’m reading is understandable, but also a little over my current level. Whenever I see a sentence which contains words or grammatical constructs I have difficulty understanding on the first pass, I add the entire sentence to a flashcard. When I later review the flashcard, I can indeed read the sentence easily, but only because I put in the effort earlier to understand it. I also add definitions to the words I don’t know in the target language, as suggested in the AJATT method. After a few weeks, I’m trying to review whether this method is working for me. At the moment, it’s not helping me produce faster, it has helped me pick up idioms and some common sayings which I’m seeing repeated everywhere. My question is whether it is worth continuing down this road, and whether people have had success just by doing this. My own brain is fighting with me, saying that I’m not learning anything, I’m learning just to recognize a sentence that I’ve seen before. I’m so used to memorizing words and grammar rules, that I’ve convinced myself that just getting input is like pouring water into a bucket with a hole.

I’ve now started using LingQ to learn German, and because I learnt some German in school, I can understood the input somewhat. However, do I try to memorize the sentences and phrases without trying to understand the grammar behind them, or do I analyze everything and try and produce similar sentences. I’m not actually 100% sure how to effectively use LingQ in this regard.

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"However, do I try to memorize the sentences and phrases without trying to understand the grammar behind them, or do I analyze everything and try and produce similar sentences. "

I think most people will choose the first, but I choose the second option. However, I only analyze to the point where I am able to reproduce similar phrases.

I learn languages by seeking and assimilating templates, if you will, phrases that expose the correct grammatical forms and usages of the language, and I attempt to modify them, orally, by playing with them and substituting words, etc., until they feel natural. Most people will tell you that you learn more by reading an entire text, even if you don’t understand it all, but I firmly believe that you progress much faster if you only do parts of the text, concentrating on the new structures, spending time on the words that seem more useful in your own life, and applying the structures and the vocabulary to communicate things that matter in your life.

3

We all have to be governed by what works for us, and so a little experimenting is a good thing.

I find that I do refer to grammar as I am reading and listening. I refer to grammar often and each time in a cursory way. I have found that I am unable to absorb, understand,or remember explanations, but that these short visits to grammar probably help me to notice. Now that I have had 4 year of Russian input, there are some grammar rules that are only now starting to make sense to me. I find that to learn something, I have to refer to something I know.

I do not memorize anything. I rely on exposure, driven by the interest in what I am listening to and reading. I find that the occasional and somewhat random review of my flash cards helps me to notice words, phrases, connections between words, in other words to notice connections between similar words, and how words connect in phrases.

I don’t agree with AJATT’s approach to learning sentences. Each sentence is different. I prefer to focus on phrases, and that is what we do at LingQ. I do this in a passive way and do not try to produce anything for quite a well. I prefer to start my output activities when I am able to make sense.

It is also my experience that studying something does not equate to learning it. You may study something, but the brain decides when you will learn it, and it may be 6 months later, so it is best, I believe, to just keep exposing yourself to the language.

4

Could I ask you Steve, for any particular examples of Russian grammar that are only now becoming apparent or understandable to you?

5

Steve

AJATT changed his “10,000 sentence method” to "MCD"s – „Massive-Context Cloze Deletion Cards“, and that’s exactly what LingQ offers as “Cloze test”!!

http://bit.ly/klIJSs —> Why 10,000 Sentences Died And Gave Way To MCDs
(Details hidden within the AJATT Plus area for paying members)

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@alexandrec

Thanks for the reply. I often do this when reading texts, I will stop and analyze the sentence, and try and understand the grammar, etc. Sometimes I’ll ask a native why something is said in a certain way, and this helps me get a deeper meaning out of what I’m reading. However, I should, as you’ve said, try and create similar sentences.

I actually enjoy learning grammar, but I think spending too much time on it has negatively impacted my ability to speak. I over-analyze everything I say, and this makes me speak with a lot of hesitation and at a slow speed. When I do mistakes, it isn’t actually as bad as I imagine it to be, people normally understand what I wanted to say. Being a perfectionist is probably the worst to be when learning a language.

I’m going to take Steve’s approach with learning German. I’ll take my time, absorb plenty of input and see how it goes from there.

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Tonywob,
I feel we are identical with respect to your abovementioned inquiries. Have a look at a concurrent forum discussion that I actually started, maybe you`ll find something interesting.

May 7 and on

http://www.lingq.com/learn/es/forum/46/9321/?page=4

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and may 13, particularly

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@Polaco_peligroso

Ah thanks, this looks like a similar discussion, will move discussion to that thread :slight_smile:

10

Alexandrec,

“I learn languages by seeking and assimilating templates, if you will, phrases that expose the correct grammatical forms and usages of the language, and I attempt to modify them, orally, by playing with them and substituting words, etc., until they feel natural”

“I firmly believe that you progress much faster if you only do parts of the text, concentrating on the new structures, spending time on the words that seem more useful in your own life, and applying the structures and the vocabulary to communicate things that matter in your life”

THIS IS INGENIOUS!! BRILLIANT HONESTLY!

tonywob,

“Whenever I see a sentence which contains words or grammatical constructs I have difficulty understanding on the first pass, I add the entire sentence to a flashcard. When I later review the flashcard, I can indeed read the sentence easily, but only because I put in the effort earlier to understand it. I also add definitions to the words I don’t know in the target language”

“At the moment, it’s not helping me produce faster, it has helped me pick up idioms and some common sayings […] I’m learning just to recognize a sentence that I’ve seen before. I’m so used to memorizing words and grammar rules, that I’ve convinced myself that just getting input is like pouring water into a bucket with a hole.” → “do I try to memorize the sentences and phrases without trying to understand the grammar behind them, or do I analyze everything and try and produce similar sentences. I’m not actually 100% sure how to effectively use LingQ in this regard”

My ability to “notice” things is really sharpened as a Katana blade, hence my immediate desire to nail down what I see and categorize it, making it AVAILABLE for consecutive PRODUCTION. That, however is the main reason why I got discouraged from “learning” any new language on top of my English. By “learning” I mean “becoming equally proficient”. Such proficiency required years of nailing things down, noticing, revising, construing new variations, experimenting, checking bits with the natives and reference books, and so on and so forth. So here I agree very much with @Alexandrec and share concerns with @tonywob.
→ How can I possibly make transition from passive input to active production, if I allow myself to rest on my laurels once I merely “make sense of what I read or hear” without trying to break it into pieces, analizy it and transform it into my own - relevant to my life experience - inventory?? I also have serious doubts about that.
HOWEVER, the only way to check whether “complacent immersion” could yield results is simply to try it out. We need also bear in mind that PRODUCTION in this approach is postponed until later. So “either you nail down, analize, transform and make it ready to produce immediately” or “immerse yourself and give yourself time to see if your resistant mind will ultimately give in”.

11

@maths"Could I ask you Steve, for any particular examples of Russian grammar that are only now becoming apparent or understandable to you? "

  1. the use of the genitive with the negative, or with numbers, or with certain verbs or prepositions.

The first time the rules are explained, they make no impact. If any of these complicated rules were the only thing I needed to learn I might have a chance, but since each page in the grammar book brings more of these rules, I just treat it as information that will make sense one day.

Once I have come across these forms many, many times, they start to relate to something meaningful. I start to notice them and much much later I start to produce them correctly, some of the time. None of which prevents me from enjoying the language.

  1. perfective and imperfective verbs. No matter how many times I read the explanation I could not understand. Now I am starting to get a feel for it. Slowly.